Being naked with other doctors is a profound experience [PODCAST]

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“I am sitting in hot springs deep in the dark and crisp air woods – naked. It has been a day of lectures and workshops at a retreat with my fellow physicians. We are all naked in the effervescent, warm bubbles of the springs. In the dark, I can recognize who people are by the fluorescent necklace each wears. You know, the kind that you crunch and shake to activate that the kids get at a party. The kind you give the kids to be safe when trick or treating in the neighborhood. In many ways, these were our safety lights, worn around the neck to give a glow – but not too much light that would allow us to realize our nakedness. Funny how doctors are about nakedness. If you think about it, we deal with naked or partially naked bodies all the time, day in and day out. We take it for granted that our patients are willing to disrobe and be examined. As an OB/GYN, I saw at least twenty naked women a day. They did have a drape for their comfort, but I certainly gave it no thought. I tend to think of fellow physicians as floating heads full of information that we exchange – certainly not as embodied butt – naked humans. This is so weird. Naked with my fellow physicians that I barely know? What? What am I doing here? The thought fades for a few moments with the fading tension in my body as the warmth of the water envelopes me.”

Robyn Alley-Hay is a retired obstetrician-gynecologist and life coach. She can be reached at her self-titled site, Dr. Robyn Alley-Hay.

She shares her story and discusses her KevinMD article, “The profound experience of being naked with other doctors.”

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Hosted by Kevin Pho, MD, The Podcast by KevinMD shares the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from.

Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show, where we share the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from. My name is Kevin Pho, founder and editor of KevinMD. Today we welcome back on the show Robyn Alley-Hay. She is an obstetrician-gynecologist and a life coach, and she wrote the KevinMD article “The profound experience of being naked with other doctors.” Robyn, welcome back to the show.

Robyn Alley-Hay: Thank you, Kevin.

Kevin Pho: So for those who didn’t get a chance to listen to our first few episodes, just briefly share your story and journey to where you are today.

Robyn Alley-Hay: Yeah, I have retired my medical practice, except for nonprofit work, and am a physician life coach now.

Kevin Pho: And how has that transition been?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Wonderful, actually. I love what I do. I mean, that was the main thing, finding something where I love what I do.

Kevin Pho: What kind of training did you have to become a life coach?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Well, I started about 10 years ago, and I went to an institution that is qualified to teach coaching. And really, to be an adequate life coach, you need to go through the process yourself. And then more recently, I worked with Francine Gaylor in Physician Coach Institute, a specialty just around physicians, coaching physicians on wellness and performance.

Kevin Pho: Well, tell me some of the common issues that your physician clients face when they come to you.

Robyn Alley-Hay: Burnout is a big one, and then career, and trying to make a decision, a life decision, a transition.

Kevin Pho: In terms of the advice and direction that you give them, what are some of the most common themes of those?

Robyn Alley-Hay: I think, by the time, almost everybody has what you’d want to call kind of a low baseline of burnout. And it’s really important to get people into a parasympathetic state, because when you’re surviving, you’re in a sympathetic state, and that’s stress. And we do this by looking at what their ideal future would be, so that we can find where they’d like to have their life, say, in 10 to 15 years, and really nail down the purpose and the passions of the client, so that they can move forward in an empowered way. So that’s kind of how my coaching goes.

Kevin Pho: So you ask physicians, “What do you imagine your life to be in 10 to 15 years?” When you ask that question the very first time, in general, what are the responses?

Robyn Alley-Hay: In general, mostly people want to stay in practice. I mostly work with women. So they see themselves with practice balance, that’s what they see themselves with, and knowing their purpose. And sometimes the clients have a hard time even thinking that far in advance, but that’s part of the coaching, which is finding those passions.

Kevin Pho: Do you find that a lot of your clients have passions outside of clinical medicine when they first come to you?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Not a lot. Most physicians have their heads down, especially right now, and when your head is down and you’re in a stress mode, you’re going to be more focused on what’s right in front of you and not the bigger picture. So it’s really kind of a wake-up call: We can design your life the way you want it. It’s totally possible for you to do that.

Kevin Pho: And when you talk to these physicians about designing their lives the way they want to, how difficult is it for them to get their heads outside of clinical medicine?

Robyn Alley-Hay: It’s difficult. I mean, we’re talking burnout. It just gets you so in this space where you don’t see anything outside of yourself. So it really starts with rest, and doing those activities with family, and rediscovering passions. Sometimes it’s helpful to go back in time to before you became a doctor. What were the things that really interested you? When you became a doctor, what were the things that had you go into medicine? Those kinds of questions can get them there. But sometimes it’s really hard to get there.

Kevin Pho: All right. So let’s talk more about the KevinMD article that you wrote, “The profound experience of being naked with other doctors.” It certainly sounds like an interesting experience. Now, for those who didn’t get a chance to read your story, can you just briefly summarize it and share why you decided to write it?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Well, the story is about a retreat that I put myself in, a physician retreat. And we were at a facility where clothes were optional in the hot tubs, in their hot springs, really. They’re not hot tubs, the hot springs. And it was just a really amazing, kind of life-altering experience for me, to be in this vulnerable place with other physicians. And it was really healing for me, and it really reminded me that we’re human beings.

I think sometimes physicians, we exchange information. We’re kind of like walking heads going around hospitals, and we’re not really embodied a lot of the time. And so to actually connect with the body, and connect with the bodies of the other physicians, was really kind of a mind-blowing experience.

Kevin Pho: How was this sprung upon you? Or was this something that was unexpected?

Robyn Alley-Hay: It was expected, yeah, when I signed up for the retreat. I mean, I actually didn’t know that we were going to. Actually, it was kind of a surprise, but knowing the facility that it was in, I knew that clothes would be optional, just in the tubs.

Kevin Pho: So you mentioned that it was a life-altering experience for you and the other physicians who were there. Tell me in more detail about how that experience changed your life.

Robyn Alley-Hay: Well, I think you come in, and a lot of people are burned out. Some people are thinking about leaving medicine, and you think you’re alone in all those feelings, in all those difficulties. And so you come in and connect with a group of people that are telling their stories, and you find out that you have so much in common on a human level with all those physicians. It takes a bit to break down those barriers that we have to getting really vulnerable and to a deep friendship level. And sharing is so powerful to connect.

Kevin Pho: So you were in the hot springs, naked with other physicians. What kind of stories did you hear the other physicians talking about?

Robyn Alley-Hay: I heard stories of burnout, just working way too hard and looking for another alternative to their current job. I heard about some traumatic stress from residency programs and practicing medicine that wasn’t healed yet. And I heard some just looking for a new way to practice medicine and reconnect with their love of medicine.

Kevin Pho: And what were some of the solutions and options that you heard about reconnecting with their passion for medicine again?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Well, in this particular retreat, we were talking about doing your own direct practice, really low overhead, and kind of practicing as just a family doctor, getting back to basics with medicine, outside the whole EMR system and the insurance companies and all of that.

Kevin Pho: I can’t think of anything more vulnerable than being naked in a hot spring with 20 strangers around you. How difficult was it for you to be that vulnerable?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Yeah, I guess it just really struck me how there were so many other people that had been through similar life events, and that really helped you to be at ease, when you connect through sharing. And I guess I felt like, I’m a doctor. Dealing with bodies is kind of the thing we do. So I felt kind of like, “Well, this is a good opportunity to shed those layers and soak them off.” And that’s part of what I described in the article.

Kevin Pho: Are there any lessons from this experience that you could take with you as you go on with your coaching practice and as you coach other physicians?

Robyn Alley-Hay: I think: Remember, you’re not alone. I know, Kevin, I’ve been on previously, and I say that medicine can be kind of a lonely place if you’re not connected to a support group or your own support. You’re not alone out there, and especially right now, check in with each other. Remember that there are human beings. Medicine’s all about the human beings, and so take care of each other.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Robyn Alley-Hay. She is an obstetrician-gynecologist and a life coach, and she wrote the KevinMD article “The profound experience of being naked with other doctors.” Robyn, if you were to do this experience all over again, is it something that you would do again?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And in fact, I would lead a retreat.

Kevin Pho: And my final question: What are some of your take-home messages that you want to leave with the KevinMD audience?

Robyn Alley-Hay: Really, you’re not alone, and to check in with each other. And thank you to all those physicians that are just overwhelmed right now. Thank you for taking care of those of us outside the system.

Kevin Pho: Robyn, thank you so much for coming back on the show and sharing your story.

Robyn Alley-Hay: Thank you, Kevin.

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