Tomgirl and tomboy: Rethinking gender stereotypes [PODCAST]

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“How do we create a world where all of us can express our unique selves the way we choose without derisiveness and shame? I am not here to criticize the wonderful parents and caregivers who are reading this – they only love their children. Common sense must prevail. I only ask with respect that parents and caregivers let their kids explore freely so we all can find a way to live together with our differences celebrated.

What a wonderful day that will be.”

Craig Pomranz is a vocalist and actor.

He shares his story and discusses his KevinMD article, “Tomgirl and tomboy: Rethinking gender stereotypes.”

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Hosted by Kevin Pho, MD, The Podcast by KevinMD shares the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from.

Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show, where we share the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from. My name is Kevin Pho, founder and editor of KevinMD. Today on the show we have Craig Pomranz. He is a vocalist and actor, and he wrote the KevinMD article “Tomgirl and tomboy: Rethinking gender stereotypes.” Craig, welcome to the show.

Craig Pomranz: Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Kevin Pho: So we don’t get very many vocalists and actors on this podcast, so I’m certainly interested in hearing your story and journey to where you are today.

Craig Pomranz: I think everyone relates to the concept of the article that I wrote, which was based on an incident with my godson, because we’ve all gone through that period of not questioning, well, we all question who we are, but of looking at things and thinking, “Well, should I touch that? Should I not touch that? What does that mean when you do?” Or what does it mean when you look at something, and why is it that the world puts these limitations on you as far as what you should be looking at? That’s a big part of the picture, because we live in a world of computers and media and signs everywhere that tell you what you want and what you should buy according to your gender.

And so my godson had this incident where he was confused about that. He had said, “I don’t like noise, and I don’t really like sports that much.” And he was a little ADD. I actually wanted to give him dance lessons, but his parents didn’t want to do that, so I ended up giving him knitting needles, because he has an hour-and-a-half-long journey to his public school. He started knitting, and he started loving it, and then people were like, “Well, why is this boy knitting?” And then the book that I wrote came out of that. The book, I think, is universal. It’s in 11 countries, actually going to be in 12 this month, and eight languages, because it’s a universal idea of who we are and why we limit people on what it is they should be, or how they should be seen.

Kevin Pho: Now, when you suggested dance lessons to your godson and his parents didn’t want him to do that, what were some of the reasons behind that?

Craig Pomranz: You know, it’s hard to know. What’s interesting, especially when you have friends, and we all have friends who are in their own way very evolved people, is that when it comes to the home, it’s like they get a little more constrained. So, first of all, I’m a dancer also, so my thought was that he was a smallish boy, and that it would help him strength-wise. And also, having a little bit of ADD, if there is that diagnosis, which is easily put on people at very young ages, whatever, I thought maybe this is something that could help him focus, and help him with his physical and mental stability as far as slowing down and focusing and building up his body strength-wise.

And they seemed to think, I don’t know what. I don’t think they necessarily thought it was too, quote unquote, girly. I think they maybe thought he wouldn’t stick to it or something like that. So then the next thing I thought, I was really trying to get him to be able to focus on something, because distraction was his biggest issue at the time. So knitting seemed to be the next option, and he took to it. He just loved it, so that started.

Kevin Pho: You mentioned some of the reaction to his knitting from his peers. Go into more detail in terms of what some of that reaction was, and how did he react to the people around him?

Craig Pomranz: Well, I think what was fascinating about it, and I think what is also true, is that you start something, and someone looks at you askance, and they think this is a little weird. But the more you do something, the more you put into it, and the more it becomes who you are and what you do, people start to respect the fact that you finish something, that you do something, even if it’s unusual. So in the beginning, a lot of his friends, or peers rather, because I don’t know if they were really considered friends, but a lot of his peers looked at him funny, like, “Why are you, first of all, on a bus? Why are you knitting? Why are you knitting this really colorful thing? It’s really long, and it’s in the way.” And also, I think basically, a lot of them thought, “Well, I don’t think boys should be knitting,” you know?

And he would talk to us about it, and I would say, “You know something? The most famous clothiers and knitters in the world are men.” So it’s a funny thing that we have this contradiction in the workplace all over. It’s like, when should boys be cooking? It always used to be, not as much now, but it used to be such an issue. But if you think about it, all the really famous chefs are men.

So at one point he had said to his mom, you know, he was feeling awkward because all the kids were noisy, and they were all doing sports and all these things, and he liked to sit quietly and knit. And then he looked up, and he said, “Is there such a thing as a tomgirl?” And that just said so much to me, what that meant, because there was at that time no real longevity of that word, tomgirl, but it means so much. To me, a tomboy’s known to be assertive and aggressive, or just athletic, or all these possibilities. But you say tomgirl to anybody, and they’re always thinking, “Oh, a little sissyish, a little girl.” It’s all this negative, which then, you have to ask yourself, what does that say to our young girls? And it really upset me to think about how we have raised generations of young women who think they’re lesser than, just because of the negativity of the word feminine. And why is the word feminine negative? And tomgirl is negative. So that’s sort of how the whole thing moved forward.

Kevin Pho: Now, you wrote more about this in that KevinMD article that you referenced, titled “Tomgirl and tomboy: Rethinking gender stereotypes.” Now, at KevinMD, on this podcast and on my site, I have an audience of clinicians. So what are some of the main messages from your article that you want my clinician audience to come away with?

Craig Pomranz: It’s important to help people embrace who they are. I think there’s a very big difference, and this is a medical problem. There’s a very big difference between supporting someone and, maybe promoting is not the word I want to use, but there’s a very big difference between giving someone support and pushing them in a direction, because you can’t find out who you are being pushed, because we all want that kind of attention, in my opinion.

And I’ve talked before about how some of the most evolved people I know, friends, very evolved parents, as it were, had a child who was wearing high heels at home and wanted to leave the house wearing the high heels. And his mother said to him, “Well, you know, it’s really perfect and fine for you to wear this at home, but maybe in public you don’t want to do that.” And I had to remind her that she was doubling down on the issue. Like, you’re not saying, “Well, it is really a problem to do it in public as opposed to at home.”

And it’s very hard, I think, for our clinicians. The concept of how and when to protect a child has to be defined clearly, because you certainly want to protect a child from violence, but you can’t protect a child from experiences. And that means you can’t protect, and shouldn’t protect, a child from getting hurt, other than physically. And that’s how they can find their whole self, if that’s possible, because otherwise you get a bunch of very entitled, self-centered people who don’t understand that there are other people in the world, and they don’t learn how to engage with other people.

Kevin Pho: Now, can you give us a case study or a story of what is, I guess, the quote-unquote right way of supporting a child who doesn’t participate in a gender-conforming activity? Do you have any advice and tips, and maybe a story that you can share, of how physicians and parents can do that?

Craig Pomranz: One of the problems we have in our world is that these young people can go online. So you have to pay attention to what your child is saying, in the immediate sense of what they’re saying, and not read into it more than it is, which is the difference between supporting them and pushing them in a direction. Because the problem is they can go online, and they can find people who agree with them and actually push them in a different direction. And therefore, they themselves are not, in their own selves, finding out who they are. And that’s difficult, because you can’t watch your child every minute. So that’s one thing that I would say.

But I think, and it’s old-fashioned, but it’s true, you really have to be at eye level and communicate with your child and say, “Your feelings are feelings, and they’re valuable feelings.” But you also have to see where they’re taking them and where they go, and help them understand the limits of where they can take them, so that they’re not doing something so extreme that they lose track of what they’re really feeling as opposed to what everyone else is telling them they should feel. Because a lot of their feelings seem to come from outside sources, because they’re trying to learn and they’re trying to grow. So outside sources are not there, and you have to engage in these things. We live in a world where you can’t ignore technology.

Kevin Pho: When you say that these children are online, of course we can’t ignore the influence of social media, right? So can you comment on the role of social media in terms of discouraging, or even encouraging, children who want to participate in activities that may not conform to gender stereotypes? Because I can understand how social media can be discouraging, but sometimes social media can help children find people who are like themselves. So comment on the role of social media in this issue.

Craig Pomranz: It’s actually interesting in all areas, because I have a young friend, a young girl, who at some point was, you know, hair in front of her eyes, glasses, very, very shy. And for her, this whole remoteness was helpful. For her to have a computer and be able to go to school remotely, she was able to come out more and be more herself, not feeling the pressure of “Do I look like somebody else, or am I behaving like somebody else or doing what they want to do?”

So I think every child is different, but I think it’s important to see where the child is engaging and what they’re engaging with, and who. I mean, even though they deserve their privacy, when it comes to classes and what they see online, if they’re watching TikTok, it’s much harder to navigate what they’re doing. But they’re influenced by it, and you have to allow them to make their mistakes as long as they’re not violent. And the only way you can help is by engaging and having conversations, because what you don’t want is for all these thoughts to go in their head and for them to start to take them in as real.

You know, it gets a little broader, into getting older and relationships and things like that, and what you should do and shouldn’t do, and how you should or shouldn’t behave. It’s hard. Those are very hard for parents. We’re still a very repressed society, where we refuse to talk about sex with young kids when we should, when we should understand if we can encourage girls to understand that they’re not just vessels, and that they should know their own body so they can have a life for themselves, and encourage boys to understand, you know, respecting each other. All these different issues are very hard for parents to discuss with children. I’m not quite sure why, but they seem to be, and I understand the nervousness of it.

I do a lot of parenting podcasts, which is very amusing since I have no kids, but I think it’s important. I think common sense is such a big part. You lose common sense when all those extra things surround you. You get nervous. And I think you really have to stick to the facts and be as honest and open as you can and answer questions. The more you hear the truth, the more everyone understands each other. And I know it makes people anxious and nervous, because everyone’s truth is different, but these are the important ways to grow and become a whole person.

Kevin Pho: Now, when you talk about engaging with children and having a conversation with them, what are examples of some questions parents should be asking?

Craig Pomranz: I think, as I said, it’s an old-school idea that you get to eye level with them, that you’re not looking down on them, that you’re at eye level. And then you have to be very forthright about “What do you think it means to be physical with someone or to be attracted to somebody?” and how to know your own body, and that’s the hard part.

I remember there was an episode on Oprah. I happened to watch this episode on Oprah where she had a young sex therapist on, and the sex therapist was saying, “Well, we have to teach girls about their bodies.” And there was this huge uproar from family saying, “Well, I’m not going to teach my daughter how to masturbate.” And everyone was like, “Well, OK, so what’s wrong with touching your own body and knowing your own body, versus other people going at your body and you’re not wanting it?”

I know I’m making it sound easier than it is, but it is a reality. I think that these hard things aren’t really that hard, other than doing them. Because the other thing is, it’s the humanness of who we are to make these mistakes, and discussions help children understand this is a human thing, and that we all feel differently about these things, and we all react differently. And so these are at least parameters that I can trust. And what you want is to hope that your child trusts you enough to know that you’re looking out for their benefit, and that this is one way to do it, by communicating not only to me, but hopefully to the person that you’re engaging with.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Craig Pomranz. He’s a vocalist and actor, and he wrote the KevinMD article “Tomgirl and tomboy: Rethinking gender stereotypes.” Craig, what are some of the take-home messages that you want to leave with my KevinMD audience?

Craig Pomranz: So my book, which is called Made by Raffi, is in 11, 12 countries, and I bring that up because it has proven to me how universal this topic is. So the book covers a number of things, like how someone can become a whole person and then rise above the concept of being bullied or teased, because you learn how to let things roll off, because you have the support from other people, and then you’re also able to just move forward, because it’s what you do, and this is what you like and what you do.

So I think that, as I said earlier, you cannot protect a child from teasing or bullying, nor should you, because bullying will always be around. And I find that very difficult, this conversation about “stop the bullying,” because that’s not the answer. The answer to me is to give kids the tools so that they don’t become victims to bullying. And that’s a much easier, but that’s a better way to look at it, because there will always be bullies. So when you can give someone the tools to be either more confident or to be able to let something roll off their back, that’s really more the issue to me: Give people the tools so that they don’t become victims.

Kevin Pho: And how can people reach you and find your book?

Craig Pomranz: I’m at craigpomranz.com. My book is on Amazon or something, but you can certainly call me or write to me at craigpomranz.com. I have copies, and I can send them to you, which I’m happy to do. And you can order them for your libraries. I think they should be in every library. And it’s about to come out, it’s being published in India with a new illustrator, which is what I’m excited about, that as it goes to different countries, I’m excited about different illustrators putting their picture on it. So that’s very exciting to me.

Kevin Pho: Craig, thank you so much for sharing your time and insight. And thanks again for being on the show.

Craig Pomranz: Thank you.

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