Why medical students should be taught the business side of medicine [PODCAST]

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“Ultimately, patient care is at the center of medicine and is the main reason many physicians chose to go into the field. A good understanding of the business side of medicine and personal finance can help future physicians focus on just that. There are plenty of options when it comes to how we can begin to integrate these topics into medical education. There are clear benefits that come with learning these skills, and many students are eager to do so. We need more medical schools to integrate these subjects into their curriculums, and students who are given the opportunity to gain this knowledge can become more well-rounded physicians as a result.”

Martinus Megalla is a medical student.

He shares his story and discusses his KevinMD article, “Why medical students should be taught the business side of medicine.”

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Hosted by Kevin Pho, MD, The Podcast by KevinMD shares the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from.

Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show, where we share the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from. My name is Kevin Pho, founder and editor of KevinMD. Today on the show, we have Martinus Megalla. He’s a medical student, and he wrote the KevinMD article “Why medical students should be taught the business side of medicine.” Martinus, welcome to the show.

Martinus Megalla: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Kevin Pho: We’ll get into your article in a little bit, but first off, can you share your story and your journey to where you are today?

Martinus Megalla: Yeah, sure. My name is Martinus Megalla. I was born and raised in New Jersey. I’m currently a second-year medical student here in New Jersey at Hackensack Meridian. I’ve always been interested in the business side of things. In college, I went to NYU, and I majored in economics. Although I was on the pre-med track the whole way, and I knew I wanted to pursue medicine, we took enough science classes as a pre-med, so I figured I’d get a little diversity and study economics. That side of things has always interested me.

Kevin Pho: Wonderful. Have you always had an interest in the business side of medicine?

Martinus Megalla: Yeah, I have. Maybe not so much the business side of medicine before college and med school, but I’ve always had that business acumen, because my whole family is entrepreneurs and business people. My dad owned a deli for a long time, so I grew up working with him and studying that sort of business and things like that. So I’ve always been interested in that aspect of things.

Kevin Pho: And just out of curiosity, as you were pursuing your economics major in undergrad, how many of those economics majors were also pre-meds applying to medical school?

Martinus Megalla: At my school, with me, I really didn’t think there were many. Maybe there were one or two more. I know that there are some people across the country who do that. I know some people personally, friends, who have done that, but I don’t think it’s super common.

Kevin Pho: All right. So let’s talk about that intersection between business and medicine. You wrote the KevinMD article titled “Why medical students should be taught the business side of medicine.” Now, for those who didn’t read the article, can you just walk my audience through it and share the story of why you decided to write it?

Martinus Megalla: Yeah, sure. Like I said, I’ve always been interested in this side of things, and especially in college and medical school, once I started pursuing medicine, I noticed that there is a huge business side of it: health care economics, personal finance, things like that. So I grew a passion for that. I actually read a lot of articles on your website regarding these kinds of topics in this field. So I decided, I’ve had experience with this, and I’ve learned a little bit about it, so I just wanted to get my thoughts out there, put them on paper, and just see if I could get them out there and let other people see what I was thinking as well.

Kevin Pho: So, under normal circumstances, what kind of business training do most medical students get?

Martinus Megalla: This is something I talk about a little bit in the article, but I really don’t think medical students, at least not in medical school, get really any sort of formal business or personal finance training at all. We do have some resources through our schools, usually, that provide information about loans and loan repayment, things like that, but it’s on a very surface level. There’s no real dedicated curriculum or dedicated time spent on talking about any of these aspects.

And when I talk about the business side of medicine, I really consider a few things as part of that. I see the personal finance and financial literacy part of that. I see health care as a whole, and health care economics, like we were saying, and just how the whole structure works together and how these things interact.

For example, at my school, I started the Business in Medicine Club, because, like I said, there’s a lack of that integration and training and those kinds of things. Through our club, we’ve had talks from a bunch of different people. We’ve had financial advisers come in to talk about the personal finance part of it. We’ve had doctors come in who own and work in private practice, and they tell us about the day-to-day of that, billing, things that you don’t really think about right now but that you’ll have to think about in the future, and just what that’s like, giving us a little bit of exposure to that.

We actually had the CEO of CityMD, Richard Park, come in and talk to us, and he gave us a whole talk on entrepreneurship and his story, how he got into starting a large urgent care model that he’s done. And I’ve also had a medical malpractice lawyer come in and talk to us, because I think that’s another thing. It’s not necessarily the business side of medicine, but it’s something that is involved in the medical field that is good to be aware of and good to learn about at an early stage.

Kevin Pho: Now, from your experience, those medical students who take a more traditional route to medical school, like a biology pre-med or a science-based pre-med, what is their average level of business and financial literacy?

Martinus Megalla: I think overall in the field of medicine, whether you’re in college or whether you’re in medical school, or even if you’re a resident or an attending, the level of financial literacy is unfortunately pretty low, because, like I said, we just don’t have a lot of exposure to that kind of stuff. So if you’re not going out and seeking out ways to learn about it or finding resources to learn on your own, you’re never really going to be exposed to it too much until it’s a little late. There have been people who have written about this and studied it, and they found that the level of financial literacy in this field is overall pretty low, unfortunately.

Kevin Pho: Let’s go a little bit more granular. What specific aspects of financial literacy are most important for those pursuing a medical career?

Martinus Megalla: I think it’s important just to have a basic grasp on things like budgeting, things like how to manage your student loans and repayment options. Think basic things like 401(k), Roth IRA, things like that. I think very basic tax knowledge is very important, because doctors are incredibly high earners; they’re one of the highest-earning professions in the United States. So you go to residency, you graduate, you get an attending salary, and you’re thrown into a very high tax bracket, and you don’t really have any sort of formal training or formal knowledge about how to navigate that and how to do that properly.

Kevin Pho: Now, do they need any specific courses or formal training per se? Is there any other way they can get this knowledge, or any books or resources you can recommend?

Martinus Megalla: I think there are plenty of ways to get it. I think it would be nice to try to integrate some of these things into the medical curriculum, maybe as electives. I think I wrote about one school that integrates this as an elective during medical students’ fourth year. So stuff like that would be good.

But besides that, the way I’ve learned about this stuff is really just using resources, for example, KevinMD, with lots of articles written on there. People like the White Coat Investor: His book is amazing, and a lot of people read it. Also, on his website, there are articles that walk you through pretty much any topic you can think of on financial literacy and personal finance.

And I think just talking to people as well. Personally, what I do is, when I’m working with an attending or resident or anyone in the medical field, obviously we’re learning the medicine side of things as well, but I’m also not worried to ask about things like personal finance and more career things and business-side-of-medicine-type stuff as well. And they’re always happy to discuss it with me. I think it’s a good way to get that firsthand knowledge from someone who’s been through it.

Kevin Pho: Now, you say you run a business of medicine club at your medical school. In general, how much interest is there among medical students in obtaining some type of financial literacy or seeking out some business expertise as they’re going through medical school, knowing how busy they are?

Martinus Megalla: Yeah, that’s the thing. It is very busy, but I think there’s actually a lot more interest than meets the eye or than you might think. I think it’s a little intimidating at first, because it seems like uncharted territory, just the same way that medical curriculums are intimidating at first, but you learn how to navigate it the more you get exposed to it.

But personally, for our club, when we had our first meeting, I was very surprised at how many people showed up. We had a very large turnout. A lot of people were interested in it, and at subsequent meetings after that, there has been a lot of interest. I think people want to learn about this stuff, but you have to give them a way that’s accessible, a way that makes sense and is relevant to what they want to do.

Kevin Pho: And when talking to faculty members in general, it doesn’t have to be your school, but just faculty members in general, how interested are they in incorporating some of the business aspects of medicine into their curriculum?

Martinus Megalla: I think there is interest, maybe not in direct integration, but every time I talk to someone who’s in the medical field, they say, “I’m learning this stuff now, but I wish I had known it sooner.” So from that side of things, I think that people would find it beneficial to try to get some of this training done early on.

I was talking to a doctor the other day that I work with, and he was telling me that he had bought the White Coat Investor course, and he’s waiting to dig into that and figure out how to manage the finances and do things like that. So I think people always want to learn about it, and they want to try to explore that side of things and have it, but it’s hard to do it early on.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Martinus Megalla. He is a medical student, and he wrote the KevinMD article “Why medical students should be taught the business side of medicine.” The traditional view of medicine is that it should be kept separate from business, because if you involve too much money in medicine, medicine becomes a commodity, and it really detracts from the ideal of what medicine should be. Now, what do you say to someone who responds to you like that?

Martinus Megalla: No, I totally agree. I think that that’s a valid point. When I do discuss this stuff, it’s really not necessarily about ways to make money, but just about having an understanding of these basic concepts, because no matter what, doctors are high earners, no matter which way you slice it. It’s not at the expense of patient care or anything like that, but they are high earners, and they have to know how to be responsible with their money and to manage it.

And I think it is beneficial for patient care, ultimately, when you can learn about this stuff and not have to worry about it later on. You can just focus all your attention on caring for patients, as opposed to being stressed and worried about finances. The median debt for most people graduating medical school is about $200,000, which is not a small amount of money, and most people go out without having any sort of plan or idea of how to pay that back or when they want to pay it back. And people are paying off these loans for a big chunk of their life after they graduate.

And I think, as I wrote about in my article as well, this contributes to the high burnout rate that we see in medicine. One of the main factors that people cite is these financial issues. So from that standpoint, being able to get some sort of education and training on this early on could actually be beneficial in the long run. Ultimately, what we care about is patient care, and I think it can help people to focus on patient care and dedicate as much of their energy as possible to that.

Kevin Pho: And for those medical students who may be listening to this podcast, what is your number one actionable tip that you can share with them?

Martinus Megalla: My number one tip is that if you’re at all interested in this or you want to learn more, don’t be intimidated. Feel free to reach out to people that you know, reach out to me, reach out to any mentors, any people in your schools. And there are plenty of resources out there. If you just start little by little and start to read a little bit every day, or a little bit here and there, you will learn a lot in a very short amount of time.

Kevin Pho: And my final question: What’s your take-home message that you want to leave with the KevinMD audience?

Martinus Megalla: My take-home message would probably be that the business side of things and personal finance are an extremely important part of medicine. Like you said, we don’t like to talk about it too much, but there’s really no way around it. And I think, ultimately, it’ll be beneficial if we can have some sort of basic understanding of this stuff. Ultimately, it’ll allow us to focus 100 percent on caring for patients and caring for ourselves as well.

Kevin Pho: Well, thank you so much for sharing your time and insight, and thanks again for being on the show.

Martinus Megalla: Thank you so much for having me.

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