Haggling with your doctor about the costs of care

How to Haggle With Your Doctor“ was the title of a recent Business section column in the New York Times.  This is one of many similar directives to the public in magazines, TV and Websites urging us to lower the high price of our health care by going  mano a mano with our physicians about the price of tests they recommend and the drugs they prescribe.  Such articles provide simple, commonsense recommendations about how to respond to the urgency many of us feel — insured or uninsured — to reduce our health care expenses.

With unemployment at 9.4 percent and more than 50 million Americans lacking any or adequate health insurance, I understand the impulse of editors to assign this story. Plus, “of all the providers of medical care, physicians are most important in determining how much will be spent,” notes Arnold Relman in the New York Review of Books, since they make all the allocation decisions that “call on the facilities and services of all the other providers of care —hospitals, imaging centers, diagnostic laboratories, manufacturers of drugs and equipment.” The prices charged by these institutions vary widely and therein lies the opportunity to find some savings.

But coming off a wave of big-buck spending related to my recent diagnosis of stomach cancer, I am acutely aware that haggling with my doctor about the costs of my care is neither simple nor is it a matter of common sense.  Rather, it is a matter of 1) understanding in detail both the opportunities and limitations related to my health insurance; 2) being persistent in information seeking, since price lists are often difficult to track down and comparisons of quality (accuracy) of laboratories and testing facilities are nonexistent; 3) using available information and my judgment to weigh options; 4) the willingness to risk the rejection of my request by my provider and perhaps antagonize her and 5) overcoming my pride and asking to be treated well while seeking the best value for my money.

The fact that health care is not a real “market” for patients is old news, although perhaps not to those journalists who blithely recommend that we set off to haggle our way to cheaper care.  And it is irrelevant news to the vast majority of the public for whom discussing cost with their doctor is anathema.  Many people would not consider doing so;, first, because they may not know that the prices of drugs and tests vary so much by provider/source; second, because they may feel uncomfortable mentioning money concerns; and third, because the public has long held the view that more expensive care is better care and in seeking to pay less, one may be tacitly agreeing to accept less effective care.

Objectively, none of these factors should influence a person’s ability to ask straightforwardly: “I wonder if there is a way you could help me reduce the price of my care?”  But our relationship with our providers is rarely objective.  We come to them when we are sick and vulnerable.  We put our lives in their hands.  We trust them to do the best for us.  And we value deeply their efforts.  Haggle about the price of this commitment?  Many of us will not, even if the alternatives are bankruptcy or going without care.

So what should we make of this rash of recommendations to enlist our providers in reducing the price of care?

I, for one, want to know whether similar imprecations are aimed at doctors and other providers so that if we must ask for help to pay less, they are able to respond with useful strategies and without hostility.  All health plans remind doctors of policies that aim to constrain costs by providing incentives to physicians who deliver care that is evidence-based, for example, or dictating the priorities of drugs prescribed for certain treatments.  But our requests are not policy-based.  They relate to the use of specific facilities, dosages and frequencies.  Other than providers in federally qualified health centers, many of whom have well-honed skills in squeezing the most care for from each dollar, most providers are largely unfamiliar with the prices of the services, tests and drugs they recommend.

Will this advice to ask for a break on the price of care exert demand that results in more transparency about cost and quality?  Perhaps, but only if many more people cast off their traditional passivity with regard to their care, overcome their reluctance to discuss money, and invest the time required to tracking down the elusive price and quality information that is required.

The frequency of the recommendation to haggle with one’s doctor may reassure the public that discussing the price of care will apply pressure to meaningfully reduce what we pay.  But “This drug /that test is too expensive for me.  Can you do me a favor and spend time with me to find lower price solutions without compromising quality?” is not an approach that will lead to a widespread and enduring solution.

While we are waiting for the enactment of federal and state policies that would ensure that each of us can afford the care we need, what private policies and public regulations about transparency and price would help us out here?  What would ensure that those of us who are willing to take on the tasks of trying to cut a better deal for our care with our providers have the information and guidance to do so?

Jessie Gruman is the founder and president of the Washington, DC based Center for Advancing Health. She is the author of Aftershock: What to Do When You or Someone you Love is Diagnosed with a Devastating Diagnosis. She blogs regularly on the Prepared Patient Forum.

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  • JPB

    Then there’s the problem that many doctors don’t know what things cost. I have even had physicians who claimed not to know their own fee schedule!

    • pcp

      We use over 200 CPT codes on a daily basis in our practice. The negociated fee for each code is different for each insurer we contract with. How many of those numbers do you expect me to know?

      • http://onhealthtech.blogspot.com/ Margalit Gur-Arie

        I can’t resist this one… :-)

        That’s what computers are for. Just a click of a button away.

        • JPB

          Exactly! Why can’t a doctor say, “I’m not sure, but let me find out.”?

        • Vox Rusticus

          Not really. The carriers have the information and they don’t always make that information available at the click of a mouse.

          What is more, if my patient is that curious to know what his carrier will pay some imaging center for an MRI under their negotiated contract, not mine, I suggest that the patient go and do the pointing and clicking.

        • elmo

          oh please:
          My experience with EHR, Log on…wait. Log on again….wait. Load the EHR…..wait. Load my patient….wait. Go through the multitude of unrelated notes from nursing, PT, social work, other docs, etc, etc to find the one note I am looking for because the EHR sucks so bad that it can’t subgroup notes. Same for labs or imaging. Finally 10-15 minutes have gone by while I have found what I need. Do you honestly think a comparison billing system will be any better? I don’t. Frankly I am sick and tired people saying the wonders of IT speeding things up. IMO it has done nothing but slow down my visits. I have learned the hard way these systems are rarely about patient care but moreso for documenting for insurers/medicare. What a joke.

          • elmo

            PS: I forgot to add that you get kicked out after 20 minutes of inactivity so it starts all over again with the next visit.
            My conclusion: The IT people peddling this junk have no idea what I need and how they can help me become more efficient. They have no clue what I do. BUT they have sold this crap on the administrators who clearly have no clue what I do and what I need either.

          • http://onhealthtech.blogspot.com/ Margalit Gur-Arie

            Nothing to do with EHR…

            Ask your biller on Monday if she can run an Allowables (or contractuals) report for you. If she says Yes, then all the fees, by payer, for your services are in her computer and can be easily printed out for reference.
            If she says No, you may want to inquire as to how much money you are leaving on the table when insurers pay you less than the contracted rate and your biller has no idea that you’ve been shortchanged.

        • elmo

          No Margalit it has everything to do with the fallacy that this infomation is just at your fingertips just with a click of “a button”. LIKE EMR’s this is by and large far from true. I know my biller well and I know this information IS available, but far from one “click” on the computer. I’ve seen the printouts, speaking of gobblygook. She knows her billing well, but I am not going to ask her to collate costs for every code for every insurer that changes every year (and often less). She is pretty busy doing her job by helping me keep the practice above water. Don’t you think it is a wiser letting a doctor during appt be a….doctor as opposed to a administrator? Especially as Von Rust pointed out, the patient can look up this information with the insurance for him/herself. I know it is novel for most people, but It is called taking an active role in your healthcare. Let me guess you are not a provider and you have never run a practice.

          • http://onhealthtech.blogspot.com/ Margalit Gur-Arie

            I am not a provider and I never ran a practice.

            I don’t think you should be sitting there with each patient going over lists of CPTs and comparison shop with them either.

            However, in order for you to get paid for your work the maximum amount agreed in your contracts, the software that creates your electronic claims should have knowledge of what those contract amounts are and constantly monitor that the insurer is actually paying you what they agreed to pay. They don’t always do that, in which case you should dispute the payment.
            Many practices only have one fee schedule loaded in their billing software – the Medicare one – and they bill a multiple of it. When the remittance comes in from a private insurer, the biller and the software assume that the “allowable” on the EOB is contractually correct. That is not always the case. Each commercial remittance should be compared to the original fee schedule in the contract and reports should be available and action should be taken to correct insurers’ “mistakes”. A good piece of software that automates this process would actually make your biller’s job a lot easier.

            As a byproduct, the contracted commercial fee schedules should be available for printing or viewing or, if you choose, sharing with the patient on a case by case basis, if they ask. And with the type of software I described above, it would be a click of a button (and several key strokes to type the CPT).

            Of course, you only have your own contract prices, so if the patient wants to know about a cheap place to get an MRI, you cannot provide much more than anecdotal help. You would think that insurers would have an interest to provide that information to patients, but they don’t. Not until after you had the procedure.

        • pcp

          Missed your reply, Got me there!

  • jsmith

    “Haggling” with docs might sound like a decent idea, but you might get told to take a hike. Likely it would work better with a cosmetic surgeon than a family doc. Community health centers can often help provide low-income people with care at an affordable price. Unfortunately, they often have trouble providing sub-specialty care.
    Also, a lot of people facing really big financial outlays are pretty darn sick and in no physical or emotional position for this. Better a societal solution, which sadly might not be on the horizon.

    • http://Www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

      Can a doctor legally tell a patient to “take a hike” if they have started to treat? Where is the line drawn?

  • rezmed09

    “Can you do me a favor and spend time with me to find lower price solutions without compromising quality?”

    You are right that this is not an easy question to answer. Probably the most obvious hurdle is that time is money. And the other obvious response is to ask “Are you or your family going to sue me if the outcome isn’t as you expect?” “Quality” is often determined and quantified by litigation.

  • Socram

    Isn’t it illegal for docs to charge different people different prices? I thought they could have one price for everyone(including insurance plans) and give a % discount for those without insurance. But other than that how much can my family doc haggle with me?

    • JPB

      They already do charge people diferent fees when they agree to take a lesser fee (than what was charged) from an insurance company. I also had a doctor tell me that he could be sued for insurance fraud if he charged a self-pay patient the same amount that the insurance company paid! This system really stinks!!

    • Vox Rusticus

      No, it is not illegal.

  • soloFP

    Unless a patient can prove financial straits, docs charge patients the same for each level of care. A standard 15 min 99213 visit is charged the same, but then insurance companies reprice the visit to a lower cost. You can charge $100 for the visit, but most plans average $55 for this visit. If you are a self paying patient in cash, you may get a break on the price. If a doc is on Medicare, the doc is not supposed to charge below Medicare rates, unless the patient is indigent. FYI, courtesy or free care to other doctors and family members of doctors violates most Medicare contracts.

  • Doc99

    Third Party Payor is an impediment to haggling. HSA’s on the other hand facilitate haggling. This may be why PPACA guts HSA’s.

    • gzuckier

      On the contrary; third party payor means that the MD is haggling with one 500 lb gorilla rather than 8000 1 ounce mice.

      • http://www.faircaremd.com Alex Fair

        The beauty of a well-designed (mouse) management system is that it automates the 8,000 (mouse) relationships and discussions, making the relationships manageable. Gorillas are pretty much unmangeable without joining the zoo staff.

  • Vox Rusticus

    Unless the issue is for a non-covered service, or the patient is paying cash and has no pre-negotiated rates for services (as with high0deductible plans), given how significantly I have already been discounted, “haggling” is a non-starter. I would tell that patient to go elsewhere.

    Unless you are paying cash, and both parties are free to come to a price, then talking about “haggling” is nonsense.

    • elmo

      Correct:
      Unless you are self pay, any “haggling” would by and large be for the insurer. Insurers do a good job of scrwing docs from day 1. You want to “haggle” effectively? Play an active role in aiding your employer to address costs of premiums with insurers before reenrollment.

  • http://www.faircaremd.com Alex Fair

    Many good points have been made here, and many fallacies have have been promulgated as well. First: disclosure: I am not a provider, though I did get trained in Pathology as a scientist once upon a time at two different medical schools. I have helped manage and run 2 large billing companies and over 200 medical offices; I have designed systems for practices and hospitals; and last June I launched a website that enables direct contracting between doctors and patients in an automated, no hassle kind of way that respects privacy and providers. That stated, I have researched this issue and hired teams of great lawyers to do the same. Here is a summary of my resultant view. For more details you can see the legal tab on my blog.

    Patients paying directly for their care, whether they are in an HDHP, HSA, uninsured, or just looking for an uncovered service, are entitled to a reasonable fee and no law prevents this. Similarly, Physicians are entitled to be paid fairly. Unfortunately, what usually happens is that the patient paying for care directly isn’t charged a reasonable fee, he or she is charged the maximal fee. This is because most Practices have one “charge” and then have different adjustment or write-off amounts for every payer. The self-pay patient gets no such discount and is charged the top fee by default. Meanwhile, the doctor is paid an insufficient amount by the third party payer for his or her time and the self-pay overpay helps offset the operating loss from a low-end payer.

    As noted by others, add to this the fact that discussing fees with the person saving your life is practically taboo – or at the very least, the last thing on your mind, and it is no wonder direct-pay patients pay 2-5 times more than Insurance companies do for the same service.

    We can see here in this discussion that it is also something that many doctors are uncomfortable with, or at the very least, find distracting to the true aim, making the patient well.

    The current lack of pricing transparency does not serve the interests of Providers, nor Patients, nor the Government. This is why more doctors and hospitals are choosing to list their prices online. Contracts with “Most Favored Nation” pricing clauses are being rejected by Physicians who realize that such deals are races to the bottom in pricing. We don’t support Physicians pricing their services below Medicare rates and you shouldn’t go there. Yes, conceivably that is a source of fraud, but this is easy to avoid, just don’t be unfair to yourself in your pricing. Medicare is low enough already! If you do want to go down that road though, there are prompt pay discounts that allow for this in most states too and as long as you are not billing Medicare, there are provisions for that too.

    On the other hand, dealing with patients directly allows Physicians to save money too, some say by up to 40%:
    - no denials and less bad debt
    - no delays, Immediate cashflow
    - no utilization review
    - no paperwork
    - no phone calls or pre-authorizations

    So if a payer ever asks why you gave a discount, just tell them that as soon as they are willing to provide all of the above, that they are also welcome to the same discount.

    It doesn’t take an oncologist to know how to deal with a part of a system that has grown to the point of strangulation of vital organ systems. Think of our site as the excision and chemo your practice needs to be healthy again.

    This is a good debate, I look forward to your feedback.

  • jim jaffe

    we seem to have differing definitions of the physicians role here– partly depending on whether we are one. few would argue it appropriate for a physician to respond when asked about the value/risk of a procedure/drug he/.she recommended by saying, “how should I know? that’s not my job, go ask your insurer.” when a mammogram is suggested, the physician doesn’t say, “ask your chosen radiologist about comfort risk issues.” but when it comes to money the physicians, who are always more expert than the patients, think ignorance is acceptable. as long as patients accept it, they’ll be right.

  • gzuckier

    suggestions for haggling:
    “Doc, are you sure I need 10 stitches? wouldn’t 5 do the job?”
    “Would you take one of my kidneys as a trade in on that heart valve?”
    and, of course,
    “i can give you a chicken, or i can paint your house” http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr/20/sue-lowden-draws-fire-repeating-health-care-barter/

    • http://www.faircaremd.com Alex Fair

      Ha! Very funny. Our site only deals in cash, processed through our site or in your office. Chickens are not all that fungible and don’t transfer electronically so well.

      How about this one, look at this shiny piece of plastic with this long number on it – I will pay you a very low fee in about 60 days, sometimes longer and about 20% of the time, not at all. Sound fair?

      People do make those choices, especially out of the office, when filling prescriptions, avoiding treatment, or deciding to get less. What we try to do is help them make those choices online rather than in your office, wasting your valuable time.

      The stitches example is a good one, do you want a scar or not? 26 micro stitches by a plastic surgeon can prevent that, for an extra $900. Ultimately it is the patient’s choice and we can only guide them. One of our first patients was in this exact situation. We advised him to go right to the plastic surgeon, saving ER costs and giving the cash right to who he needed to fix his upper lip that had just been split wide open. He eventually went to the Plastic Surgeon we recommended who did a great job, but only after he spent $1,800 in the ER for a band-aid.

      The problem is that folks have no idea what to get and what it costs. Docs don’t always need to explain all this in person, people are going online to learn these facts. Connecting to actual doctors with actual prices in an open format makes a huge difference, educating and automating that conversation in a relaxed environment. Explain the service and benefits one, set the pricing and practice medicine, not haggling. We have machines for that.

  • http://www.MyHealthCincinnati.com Sunnie

    What a great discussion we have going on here. Many thanks to KevinMD for getting it going and for all of you who have contributed.
    Just wanted to jump in for the millions of patients who are out there having to pay much higher prices than what doctors or hospitals even want to charge them.
    I started an online and in-person community that connects patients to health resources that they need to improve their own health, the health of their families, and their communities-MyHealthCincinnati.
    I partnered with FairCareMD to support our members in finding great care at a fair price and am serving as the Chief Patient Advocate.
    I have been in healthcare for 17 years. I had no idea the challenges that patient who have to pay out of pocket are facing and also the financial challenges that are facing our physicians and hospitals today.
    We need a system that allows for transparency in health care costs and allows patients who are paying cash for care (uncovered services, high deductible plans, uninsured) and health care providers who want to their patient base of cash paying patients to connect in a simple and direct fashion. That is the bottom line. A system like FairCareMD is needed.
    Let’s figure out how we cut through the red tape and the bureaucracy and get it done. Would love to hear from anyone who can help us figure out how to do that.

  • imdoc

    FairCareMD looks like a great start. Am I correct that it is akin to a “Priceline” model for health care services? One of the barriers for securing a reasonable price for services is the multiplicity of rates negotiated by third parties (as was pointed out in above posts). In the past, there were some discount cards being sold, but legitimacy and fraud problems occurred. I wonder about states getting involved to help certify those who are really in need and assist getting legal discounts through some similar framework. Many doctors would help if they know people really are unable to pay.

    • http://www.faircaremd.com Alex Fair

      Thanks imdoc, we think it is pretty great too. You raise a good question about what our system does to fees. The short answer is that it improves them. We are not so much like Priceline, which is about deep discounts, we are more like Amazon, which removed all the costs associated with having a bookstore or printing. We hypothesized and have now proven that if we took out all the administrative costs associated with a 3rd party payment system, there would be enough savings to go around without asking doctors to work more hours for less pay. Believe me, I know. My wife is a doctor who not only has not gotten a raise in 13 years with the same multi-state, multi-specialty employer, this month she got a double-digit pay cut. FairCare isn’t CheapoCare or CharityCare, it is about arriving at fees that are fair to both sides of the deal – Patients AND Doctors – by replacing the payer with a smart automated deal making and payment system.

      We did learn a few things from Priceline, so the comparison is fair to some extent, but the industry is different. Most airplane seats are equally uncomfortable and are therefor a commodity. Healthcare is largely not like this and quality matters most. This is why we created rich profiles about the providers, pulling in data from myriad sources (see example: http://www.faircaremd.com/public/providers/Howard-Luks-MD.) In fact, the only reason we put a deal making system in place is because most providers are not comfortable listing their reasonable fees online due to fear of repurcussions.

      How low you go is your choice, not ours. This often confuses Providers at first. Freedom is not something most docs are used to. Call it the Stockholm Syndrome, but the status quo third party payment system is well-defended by docs who support it and won’t spend an hour to set up a free profile on sites like ours to set themselves free.

      We don’t recommend that Providers list the lowest possible price, just a fair one. Most of our deals pay better than insurance companies or Medicare pays, 25% better on average.

      Example: a couple in their 50s in Montana came to FairCareMD for help a few weeks ago. Both wanted to do a diagnostic preventative procedure that had been recommended. The lowest price we could find for a cash patient there was $3,450 each, compared to an expected price of about $1,110, a zip code adjusted average price from our partner HealthcareBlueBook.com. In New York we have this same procedure listed on FairCareMD by 15 different docs for fees from $1,199 to $$7,500. Our Chief Patient Advocate discussed this with them and since they are coming back East this summer, she arranged for them to get the test in Boston for $1,600 each. This is a fair price, especially since there will be no paperwork, delays, denials, URs,… and it is a good 40% higher than the average payment. The patients are happy (they saved over 50%), the doctors are happy, and the Harvard educated practice administrator is pretty happy too.

      How does it work? after you spend a little time setting up your profile which is designed to be as easy as facebook you create great offers that explain your care in lay terms (we have over 1,00 templates for you too). Then you set your List, Low acceptable limit, and Rejection price for each service and the system does the rest. Want more patients, lower your fees. Want less, raise them. It is that simple.

      Listing on our system gets you noticed by search engines and the general public for a lower cost than any other solution. Well-described offers routinely appear in page one search results on search engines too (try Colonoscopy 10010, for example.)

      We know the capacity and interest from doctors to give charity care is much deeper than the general populace gives you credit for, but that is not what our system is designed to help you deliver. That you can do through Medicaid or directly when folks show up in your office or ED. That is not a system we needed to invent in order to change healthcare for the better.

      Nonetheless, with over 50,000 patient searches for care and not enough doctors in the system, this grassroots approach for healthcare reform isn’t working for many patients yet. Why? We need more docs in the system for them!

      We ask you to help them and help yourselves. Be the change you want to make. If you want to be paid fairly, do something about it. FairCareMD is a way for you to take a simple, no risk step in that direction. We have done all we can for you by making the system. The next step is yours to make. We could act like big pharma and come marketing with lunches and shwag, trips and outings, but that doesn’t add a thing to the healthcare system but cost. Since that is antithetical to our mission and we are employee, not bigco, owned, we aren’t doing it. This is grassroots and you must decide for yourself if you want to take a step towards freedom.

      Thank you for your question imdoc and to the KevinMD moderators and community that have allowed us to discuss our product in their forum. We are so appreciative that anyone who notes KevinMD in their signup form will get access to our system for free for 90 days. After that is it only $30 a month, the lowest cost we could make the system available for. We will reduce it if we can too.

      Sincerely Yours,
      Alex B. Fair
      (and yes, that is my real name)

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