The primary care specialist pay gap shouldn’t be squeezed too hard

The primary care-specialist pay gap is a popular target for those eager for reform. The gap is hailed independently as an example of and a cause of the lack of focus on primary care and prevention in the United States.

There is no doubt that the United States treats primary care, preventative care and triage much differently than most of the rest of the developed world. The distribution of primary care to specialists, especially procedure based specialists, favors the specialists much more here than in any other health care system, at least that I’m familiar with.

But I’ve expressed serious doubts about how payment reform might reshape the distribution of primary care versus specialists considering the per capita primary care population has grown just as fast that of the specialist, if for no other reason than the ever increasing influx of foreign medical graduates. FMGs who have picked up whatever slack was left by U.S. doctor’s perceived abandonment of primary care. We haven’t lost ground on primary care, in terms of the numbers, as the inequality between the earnings of the general practitioner and the specialist have grown.

My point, articulated better elsewhere, is that there is no doubt that a redistribution of physicians towards primary care would benefit population health in this country but revolutionary payment reform is unlikely to achieve that redistribution alone.

And amongst the editorials and blog posts that focus on leveling the pay scale, sometimes, the very reasons originally articulated for paying more for a CABG as compared to an office visit are ignored.

And so I want to make the argument for why the orthopaedist, the cardiologist, the neurosurgeon deserves to earn more, and considerably more, than the primary care physician. And to make the argument that maybe we’re not so far off the mark with out current reimbursement structure.

I would lay out the argument for the specialist’s pay like this: the training is longer and more difficult, there is a disparity in early earnings and the assumed risk is something much more.

I’m going into a specialty with better earning potential than just about anything else in medicine. I’m also perhaps more intimately aware of differences in training amongst the specialties than most. I’m currently a neurosurgical resident, previously I started a general surgery residency, I watched my mother go through a pediatrics residency and a critical care fellowship as a single parent, and I’ve watched my fiancee through her internal medicine training at two different programs. Not bad breadth and more familiar and substantial than just observation of the day to day doings of various residents, in various specialties that anyone at a teaching hospital sees. Enough to speak on I feel.

My residency training is as long as it gets. The seven years I will put in are more than double what a family medicine resident will. More importantly, and controversially, I would argue that it’s more difficult as well. Even in the age of work hour restrictions, I would argue wholeheartedly that each 80 hour work week is not created equally.

Now to be fair, there is much intraspecialty variation. I’m sure if I was training somewhere else my work load would be something different. Even so, I am daring to argue that on the average a surgical subspecialists training will be more work, hour for hour, than a general practitioners. Sometimes substantially more.

This year, through 2 months, is poised to be exceptionally more work than my time in general surgery and, I will say, at my own peril with my family, exceptionally more work than what I’ve seen of medicine or pediatrics training. And I face seven years of such.

Granted, there are some reprieves in terms of the rotations (bless you neurology) but I would argue, as a percentage of my training, those “good” months are less than what is generally found in primary care training.

Specialists are poised to do, in my case, more than twice the years of training of primary care physicians and those years promise to be more difficult; even if it all adds up to 80 every week.

And, ignoring the questions of variability and reliability that surround physician income surveys, the median income in my specialty is somewhere between 2-3 times that of a family medicine physician. That doesn’t seem too unreasonable to me.

That might be the most substantial argument for the pay gap, at least between the surgical specialties and primary care.

But there are other arguments as well. Less substantial is the early earning potential. Consider a resident in a surgical specialty somewhere with a low cost of living earning $200,000 before taxes over four years of training. A family medicine physician, who started their training at the same time as the surgical resident, has already graduated and claims $600,000 over the same period.

Add low five figures for the compound investment potential over those four years, say $20,000, and the extra $5,000 the surgical resident. Now true that $400,000+ difference in gross income has the potential to be made up in just 3-4 years once the surgical subspecialist is out of training, but it is certainly something else, albeit small, to consider when discussing the earning gap between primary care and specialists.

Finally, there are inherent risks associated with the technical craft that proceduralists dare.

I’m not merely talking about the malpractice premiums. I’m talking about the hazards of a patient’s life and function in a physician’s hands.

There should be pay associated with increased risk for the patient. Such things require more skill, more focus, more stress. Not that the primary care physician can’t do their patients harm. But there’s something different than an adverse reaction to a statin and an aneurysm bleeding while you’re coiling it or a patient losing an airway during anesthesia.

The risks patients undertake at the hands of proceduralists and the acuity of the situations proceduralists often deal in deserves credit.

And yet, despite all this, I will admit I personally feel the pay gap needs some squeezing. The primary care physician is required to call forth a breadth of knowledge that I never will have to; at least if s/he is to be good at their job. Their care is intimately important to public health. That is something I certainly cannot claim as a future specialist. I’ll never contribute to improving any of the global outcome measurements that we rightly judge the health of any cohort by.

Just not too dramatic of a squeeze.

Colin Son is a neurosurgical intern who blogs at Residency Notes.

Submit a guest post and be heard.

email

  • Sharon MD

    Nobody says specialists shouldn’t make more than primary care physicians. The training is longer and in some cases more grueling. But many millions of dollars more? A study done earlier this year found the income gap between primary care doctors and non-interventional cardiologists to be over $5 million over the span of a career. So as you point out, the subspecialist rapidly catches up with the primary care doctors after finishing residency. But it’s not like we’re not working hard after we’re done with residency; most full-time family medicine jobs are 60-80 hours a week. You’re right, neurosurgeons work longer hours than that, but it certainly isn’t a cakewalk for us. I think if the subspecialists would begin to acknowledge that what we do is not as easy as they think it is, and involves more hours than they think, some of this rancor would get better.

    The other component you’re forgetting here is that many of the subspecialists who are making lots more money than primary care docs aren’t neurosurgeons. Dermatologists have 1 year of residency more than family docs and earn far more after finishing, and work fewer hours (I can’t remember the last time I saw a dermatologist in the hospital on a weekend). Ophthalmologists can easily make as much as neurosurgeons in some areas, and I wouldn’t consider their training particularly grueling. Geriatricians undergo an extra year of training and are rewarded by making less than their peers who do general internal medicine.

    We need to stop this us versus them, subspecialists vs primary care ridiculousness and come up with something that makes more sense. Yes, you should be paid well (very well) when you fix a cerebral aneurysm. No argument there, especially since often you get a lump sum that covers the surgery and all after-care. But should a dermatologist make several hundred dollars for freezing off a wart in 2 minutes while I make $20 for spending an hour with an elderly woman with multiple medical problems? Should an opthalmologist make thousands of dollars for a 5-minute cataract surgery? That’s where the real problems are.

    • EA

      This is the second time in a matter of months that I have heard another doc state that ophthalmologists earn thousands of dollars for a cataract surgery. As an ophthalmologist in training and a son of a general ophthalmologist, I can assure you that this isn’t true.

      I don’t know if the “thousands of dollars” you quote includes the hospital fee, the anesthesia fee, the intraocular lens fee (is the IOL a premium IOL?), or what. But the reimbursement for the actual procedure is about $500. It has been years (>20) since ophthalmologists were earning “thousands of dollars” for a cataract procedure. My father started practicing in 1990 and was making less than 2000 an eye. It has been cut to 1/4 that amount in the past 20 years.

      My point of this post is that although ophthalmologists do well in some areas of the country, it’s not the specialty it once was for earning money. In fact, the latest data that I have seen on average starting salaries on the coasts is quite low (~160k). If you want to live in the midwest, you will earn more, but that is the same for most specialties.

      Also, the average surgical time for the procedure is 20 minutes…quick I know, but not a mere 5.

  • MB

    Colin -

    This is a thoughtful essay and you deserve props for your courage in pushing back against the momentum towards making the PCP/specialist pay gap more equal. I’m a medical student getting ready to be a PCP and I become more aware of the pay gap with each passing month and consider specialty training even though I don’t think it’s what will make me happy.

    I don’t think many reasonable people out there think that an aneurysm repair should be compensated similarly to an office visit. That’s a high risk procedure that requires skill and training and should be compensated handsomely. What is a real problem are other kinds of minor procedures (skin biopsy, botox injection, colonoscopy) and other reimbursements, like reading an X-ray or EKG, for which specialists get compensated so far out of proportion to the level of training. Specialists take advantage of this relatively low investment, high yield reimbursement opportunities to make a very handsome income. I would say that counseling a patient about end-of-life care or managing multiple chronic illnesses at once takes as much skill and care as a minor procedure and can have equally severe consequences if done poorly. This is what needs to be recognized and taken into account.

  • family practitioner

    I respect your opinion and admire your hard work in becoming a neurosurgeon. Do you have an opinion regarding the high salaries of other fields that are not as time intensive as the surgical fields, ie, radiology, anesthesiology, dermatology? The residencies for these fields are only 4 years, the hours are quite managable and, in my opinion, the liability issues do not compare to those of neurosurgery.

    I feel that surgical fields, especially general surgery, are tremendously underpaid. It makes no sense to me that the doctor removing the appendix is making less than the doctor providing the gas.

    I also think you are being naive by thinking that FMG’s are filling the gaps. Most internal medicine residents will specialize (and I don’t blame them). That leaves family practice doctors to pick up the slack, and there are not enough. A lot of baby boomer family physicians are nearing retirement age; some did ok so they can afford retirement, others may be working longer.

    It has been 14 years since I finished residency; all I have to show for it is a private practice that was going out of business until I was able to be taken over by a bigger corporation.

  • stargirl65

    Based on current neurosurgical earning reported by MGMA the neurosurgeon will make up the income gap in 2 years and then his accumulated income will rapidly move away from that earned by family practice doctors. I agree that neurosurgeons should make more than family physicians, but how much more? 6 times? 2 times? What would be fair? Currently it is more like 6 times as much.

  • Derm

    Our e and m codes greatly undervalue dermatology too. We make next to nothing for working up a case of pruritis or alopecia or a rash that shows that could be a sign of internal disease. We can make up difference on small procedures but if u cut those you will pull the rug from undeneath primary care docs too! It’s funny how I only seem to get diificult melanomas and hard to diagnose rashes from pcp while they keep “freezing the wart” or removing a skin lesion (which I then putt neck on the line when I read) for themselves

    • family practitioner

      Isn’t it appropriate to refer “difficult melanomas” and “hard to diagnose rashes” to a dermatologist?

      • Derm

        Yes it is. But fps like to pretend that they don’t benefit from these quick procedures, while imaging that I “freeze warts” all day. When in fact Derms face many of the same problems that fps face in medical dermatology bc are codes are not valued for the length of time it takes to educate a patient on an autoimmune disease etc.! We just have the option of augmenting our salary with cash pay that fps don’t have and that is where the difference in salary is. Either that or you can see 8 patients an hour and provide crappy care which I regret to say others do. Then there are the people who try only to see the quick stuff that pays well but that is not practicing dermatology either. I get so sick of the envy on these boards. Come walk a day in my life and you’ll see how sweet the life of a non cosmetic medical dermatologist is who spends the appropriate amount of time working with patients who have had melanomas, alopecia, intractable psoriatic arthritis on enbrel, vitiligo, etc.

    • Sharon MD

      Wow, you make next to nothing for working up a case of pruritis or alopecia? Guess what, we make even *less* because we can’t use the fancy “consult” codes.

      I really really don’t think that dermatology is undervalued in the E&M codes. Sorry.

  • HJ

    Are we discussing what the value of the service provided or what someone “deserves” based on training?

  • BNuckols

    One solution to the primary care gap would definitely be to pay us better. One huge problem is the uncompensated work and care for the refills, the billing, the labs the specialist tells the patient we’ll do and the labs he orders but we find ourselves having to deal with. How I wish we could bill these things hourly like the lawyers do!

    However, another problem that I see over and over is the turnover of Internal medicine interns who go on to become subspecialists. The numbers I’ve seen are that only 2% to 4% of IM interns end up in primary care. And yet, how many teaching hospitals count those IM residents as primary care when billing for graduate medical dollars? Is there a way to balance our need for Primary care and GME funding?

  • jsmith

    I hope Dr. Son knows his surgery better than he knows his economics. He seems quite innocent of the subject.
    Salaries are a price, the price of labor. In a free market, prices are determined by the interaction of supply and demand, where the curves cross. If prices are capped below where the curves cross, you have a shortage. This is first-semester econ.
    At present, salaries in primary care are too low to attract sufficient numbers of medical students into it. If we want more FPs, the supply curve must change: The salaries must go up. Or the work must be less irksome. Or we must force med students to go into it. Or the salary of other options (ie other specialties) must come down so that primary care looks like a better option. Or some combination of the above.
    As for neurosugery, the same analysis holds. If there is an oversupply cut the salaries. If S and D in are equilibrium, leave them the same. If there is a shortage, raise them.
    Dr. Son is yet another doctor to fall into just price trap, the midieval concept that work should be paid by how deserving it is, not by the interaction of supply and demand. But here’s the thing: the degree of deservedness is folded into the market price (eg, neurosugery is more irksome than family medicine, so a higher salary must be paid to induce medical students to choose it). This insight is not new. Adam Smith wrote about it in the “Wealth of Nations” in 1776.

    • Tom

      The just price trap: the medieval concept that work should be paid by how deserving it is, not by the interaction of supply and demand. But here’s the thing: the degree of deservedness is folded into the market price (eg, neurosurgery is more irksome than family medicine, so a higher salary must be paid to induce medical students to choose it).

      Well said, and spot on. Efforts to put artificial price controls on the market are doomed, in that the market will find a way to provide the desired goods or services at what the provider deems an equitable price. Or the goods and services go away. Ever try to find a psychiatrist for a patient on Medicaid?

    • fam doc

      dear js,

      i agree with your post. another way to look at it is how much does society “value” including FINANCIALLY value primary care services? its my painful and bitter realization that my services are really not valued very high as a primary care doctor. if they were, i would be paid more. simple as that. to my other beloved primary care collegues thats the reality. we can deny it or not, but its true. thats why primary care is going down hill. fast. and why i am leaving primary care soon. which is sad because i love it and think i am a good primary care doctor. further sad because of the primary care shortage.

      please note: i am not saying that people dont WANT or even LOVE our services. gosh, everyone seems to love my services i offer in my solo private practice. i am saying they dont financially VALUE them enough. there is a difference.

      • anonymous

        I think the situation we have right now (where primary care is undervalued) is the result of an artificial price cap. The success of the concierge movement shows that at least SOME patients do value their primary care physicians.
        If we got rid of ICD-9, CPT, and RVRBS, each physician could decide what to charge for their time or procedures. Some might charge by time, some might differentiate procedures based on complexity (uncomplicated appy vs perfed appy requiring drains, some might still decide to bundle their services to gain a competitive edge. We might get to see what a free market would really look like. Unfortunately, Medicare and the insurances would never allow this…

  • K Prasad

    Radiology is 5 yrs and now at least 6yrs. The higher salaries are due to the superior workflow. Radiologists read a very high volume of films daily. They are expected to know a huge amount of pathology. The amount of studying involved is comparable to pathology or derm residency only.

    • fam doc

      dear K Prasad,

      so are you saying radiology’s high salary compared to primary care & other specialties is justified? im not sure what you are saying.

  • Derm

    Clearly you are poorly informed. Medicare elimininated consult codes. Like I said, maybe you should walk a mile in my shoes before just assuming that you know everything!

    • fam doc

      dear derm,

      thanks for doing medical derm. i find it hard to find good medical derms because i find most derms want to do only the high-paying cash procedures. kudos to you.

      ok, i might agree with you. but not just yet. most of us are saying “puhleeze, you are derm! you are on the ROAD (Radiology, Optho, Anesthesiology, and DERM)- you make alot money!
      so i gotta know:
      1) are you a full time derm?
      2) what is your yearly income?
      3) what percent of your income is from cash pay cosmetic procedures.

      if if truly is low, you WIN WIN WIN your argument. deal? but if its high- and we can let this forum board decide what is low vs high- you lose.

      and if you dont answer, you lose.

      c’mon, answer. i wanna say YOU WIN. give me a chance. :)

      ok my other doctor collegues on this forum, please cheer him/her to answer.

      • family practitioner

        Please answer!

    • Sharon MD

      You’re right, medical derm vs cosmetic is a huge difference. Medical derm services are undervalued the same way all cognitive services are. Primary care docs (myself included) should not assume all dermatologists are making out like bandits.

      I think your plea that we walk a mile in your shoes is justified, but so is the reverse; all your complaints about how your cognitive services are undervalued are the exact same complaints we have all the time.

  • http://www.ohiosurgery.blogspot.com buckeye surgeon

    Colin-
    Good points. This ought not to be a zero sum game but with a limited reimbursement pie (and shrinking as we speak) the higher pay for primary care will need to come out of some specialists pockets.
    Here are your targets: dermatology, anesthesiology, ortho, and radiology. Their pay is based more on volume billing than any sort of inherent risk or liability or intellectual superiority. The system is rigged for them to be reimbursed at exponentially higher levels than say a general surgeon who ends up getting paid about 13 bucks an hour for the perfed diverticultitis who spends 3 weeks in the hospital.

    And I’m not convinced that “higher pay” is going to alter medical students choice of profession. A ten percent raise in a fam practice doc who pulls down 150k a year means he will gross 165k. Is that really such a big deal? When he knows he’s going to make well over 165 doing derm or anesthesiology, why would the extra 15 grand make a damn bit of difference? Tp make the pay commensurate with what the specialists make, you’d have to raise PCP pay somewhere on the order of 30-40% and that’s just not economically feasible.

    A better answer is med school tuition subsidization and opening up more med school slots to students who commit to primary care from the beginning (i.e you get admitted to med school if and only if you pledge to do a fam practice/IM residency.)

    Finally, the reason fam practice and primary care suffer a “prestige deficit” isn’t just because of lower pay. I have noticed a trend recently of this “shotgun consult” mentality in the management of patients. DM referred to an endo. Back pain immediately toan ortho/spine guy. Knee aches in a 300 pounder to a joint guy. Rash to a derm. Emphysematous smoker gets sent to a pulmonologist. You end up functioning as a triage nurse/referral source rather than a doctor.

    Higher pay and increased prestige are earned.

    • jsmithfan

      Buckeye

      I know where you are coming from because I see it everyday. However, I disagree with your conclusions. I am a general internist in a large multispecialty group. The “happy” PCPs are the one’s that have sold their soul to the devil, practice assembly line medicine, and refer/consult “shoutgun style” just the way you describe. They are the ones that write 2 sentence progress notes, see 30+ patients a day, refer out anything remotely complex, leave the office by 5:30, and get paid 30-40% more than me. It’s how the current FFS system incentivizes volume over quality/time/complexity. For those of us that spend time with patients, only refer when truly necessary, and handle complex chronic medical conditions, we are rewarded with 16h work days of long appointments and endless documentation of all of these complex problems. But because we only see 18-22 patients… we get paid considerably less. As you can now guess, I get closer and closer to selling my soul to the devil everyday. You get what you pay for… period.

      For those that continue to chime in that it’s only the “second class” medical students that end up in primary care anyway: I went to THE top ranked “Primary Care” Medical school in the country and the same school’s IM residency. I could’ve chosen any subspecialty I wanted, but alas, I was naiive and thought that somehow I’d figure out a way to make “the system” work for me. I was wrong, and I regret my decision to enter this thankless field of work everyday. I still believe in the value of primary care and that it has the potential to be an intellectually stimulating and rewarding profession. But not in this mess we call a healthcare system. Concierge medicine is the ONLY way that longitudinal doctor-patient primary care relationships will survive and thrive. As soon as I figure out a way to make it work for me, I will. Until then, I will “fight the good fight” as long as I can. But it is NOT sustainable.

  • PAULMD

    To SharonMD,
    To correct a factual point in your response.

    Cataract surgeons in New Hampshire are reimbursed $973.73 from Medicare for each case and medicare is the predominant insurer. This includes the pre-op measurements and 90 days of post op care. You are right that the cut to close time is usually quite short (10-15 minutes).

    When I have to do a 2-3 hour emergency surgery to fix some of their complications, I get between $900-$1,100 and have a much more involved post op management situation with 90 days of free care. Hardly seems fair but there you have it.

    • Vox Rusticus

      You must be including a 99204 and biometry. I work in a part of the country that is at least as high in costs (close enough to the source of this misery that i can feel the radiation) and cataracts do not pay nearly that much here.

      I do a subspecialty ophthalmic practice, and by comparison, cataract surgery is clover.

    • Sharon MD

      Ok I concede that I pulled those numbers pretty much out of the back of my head of something I read years ago rather than looking up the real numbers. Correction appreciated.

  • Jenga

    You left out, disease transmission risks with sharp fragments of bone in Neuro and Ortho and intraoperative needle sticks. All it takes is one needle stick operating on a Hep C drug addict to make you think the extra pay isn’t worth it, while you wait for the HIV screen.

  • http://www.BocaConciergeDoc.com Steven Reznick MD FACP

    The selfishness expressed in the many comments in this blog is the reason why politicians, insurers and employers run medicine in this country rather than doctors. As a general internist with added qualifications in geriatrics I had no doubt that my total compensation would be less than a general surgeon or specialty surgeon or interventional cardiologist.
    I completed my residency when fiber optic colonoscopy was a new experimental procedure not performed in the community. GI Fellowship went unfulfilled. Generalists were trained to read EKG’s, work ventilators in critical care units, and when necessary insert arterial lines, CVP lines, temporary pacemakers, perform bone marrow aspirations and biopsies.
    When we completed training and entered the workforce and applied for hospital privileges we needed to present documentation that we had performed these procedures with letters of recommendation before being granted privileges. My last three months in training I ran the university hospital medical ICU. My first day on the job taking call in my local ER a young gentleman with a barbiturate overdose had to be intubated. I intubated him. I wrote respiratory settings on the vent based on training and exposure to critical care gurus named Rackow and Sprung. Guess what , a chunky middle aged physician wearing shorts , sandles and a guayabara came over and kidnapped the respirator. He was an anesthesiologist and told me he owned the ventilator concession. He gave me the choice of letting him run the vent ( which I did) or stand their bagging the intubated patient. I read the EKG and recorded the reading . One year later based on lobbying of the American College of Cardiology and Joint Commission of Accredidation of Hospitals I was told that I couldnt do that unless I was a board certified cardiologist or unless I passed a test administered by Dr Marriott ( the author of the book.) I passed that test and read EKGs for a year until that was taken away as well by the JCAH. Funny thing about it was that many of the new cardiology fellows coming out of training couldnt pass that Marriott test but they were the only ones permitted to read
    On an outpatient setting thirty internists and specialty medical doctors set up a lab hiring away a pathologist from an instate university hospital. We invested, bought shares and generated passive income sending the same labs we had been sending to national lab chains . It was not a great deal of monthly income ( about $3-5K) but enough to help you pay the mortgage and student loan bills. It was declared illegal and unethical and a conflict of interest leading to the Stark laws with our academic colleagues on salary leading the charge ( see Arnold Relman MD NEJM).
    The point is that the disparity in income has grown because not only has the income gap grown between generalist and specialist but the ability to be allowed to function and perform procedures in areas you were trained to do were stripped away from generalists by the lobbying efforts of the specialty societies for their own economic gain in the name of being better trained despite having to present little or no evidence that their skills were better than clinicians performing them.
    I am not saying that I wanted to continue to insert CVP lines when I did few of them over time . I am not saying that a generalist should be performing surgery in an area with numerous and available certified surgeons. I am saying that the discrepancy is one of income and loss of ability to perform minor procedures due to the effforts of our colleagues in those specialties.
    No generalist wants to insert pins in the hands of an injured patient. If its an 18 year old with few illnesses its a different case than a 68 year old hypertensive with hyperlipidemia , CAD with two stents, COPD, BPH and a penicillin allergy. The technical operation may be the same in both cases but if you want your patient to be alive thirty days later you better hope there is good internist or FP around to coordinate the care of the older patient. If you dont pay them for their cognitive services they wont be available if you need them. I helped train nurse practitioners and physician assistants at a university level for several years. If you think they can replace the well trained generalist physician I have a bridge for you to buy to Brooklyn

    • jp

      Dr. Reznick,

      AMEN x mega, tera.

      You said it, my generalist brother.

  • Listo

    Why is pay differentiated by specialty at all??

    Why isn’t pay dependent upon how well you perform as a doctor? Isn’t a terrific, razor sharp family physician who sees all his patients on time worth more than a sloppy, lazy, gastroenterologist scope-jockey who refuses to see anyone not needing another endoscopy?

    Why don’t we allow market forces to dictate reimbursement?
    The best doctors getting paid more….wouldn’t that be an incentive to be the best doctor, and provide the best service?

    The artificial price limits now in force only encourages mediocrity, shortages, and doctors gaming the system.

    Which is EXACTLY what we have now.

    • Vox Rusticus

      “Why don’t we allow market forces to dictate reimbursement?

      Because patients would rather pay an insurer than a doctor, because patients would rather their employer pay the insurer than themselves, because voters would rather get a tax break on employer-funded health insurance premiums than shop with after-tax dollars.

      Insurance is the market. Buyers prefer paying a third party when it is unseen income being paid (vice better wages and having to pay themselves.) Of course, insurers lobby hard to keep the tax breaks there, with the employee bias toward spending pretax dollars, this is assured sales.

      Anyone can take their cash, even right now, and shop the medical care market and ask for doctors bids. Really, you can. You can even request inclusive or “costs-not-too-exceed” rates. With the exception of demanding pricing below Medicare rate, which most Medicare-participating doctors will not do for contractual reasons, cash will buy you care. The reality is that most patients when given the choice will go the way of paying an insurer and deal with whatever requirements the insurer imposes, happy or not.

  • fam doc

    dear dr son,

    i agree that physicians that go through longer residencies and take greater risks should be paid more. neurosurgery would be this field in this example. how much more is still be be determined. i welcome the debate to arrive at such a fair value.

    unfortunately 2-3x is exorbitant and an inappropriately too high of pay gap between primary care & subspecialties. to say that you as a neurosurgeon believe you deserve TWICE or THREE TIMES what i as a fam med doc am paid suggests you are selfish and arrogant.

    i am astounded that my anethesiologist friend from medical school makes 350-400 grand per year (yes, he told me what he makes), while i make 150 grand per year. this is unacceptable.

    through the professional national medical organizations of which i am a part, i will work to ensure my point of view becomes a reality . the method will be to reduce the reinbursement of the codes specifically used by neurosurgeon, and other high paying specialites.

    despite the differences between you and i, i truly wish you best of luck your future endeavors in medicine

  • Drashish

    Look we are all bright and intelligent. All our work is valuable in the right healthcare system when done to improve the health of our patient. Do all of you think trial lawyers bicker among scraps the way all of us physicians are? Please stop fighting each other when it’s not derm devaluing the care I provide, it’s not neurosurgury devaluing the care I provide.

    It’s lawyers, insurers, and hate to say it, the patients who do not value the care we ALL provide. rather than vent our egos on each other, do something constructive: including the eloquent neurosurgeon who posted the article. Do notnrall for the 30 year old trap to fight amongst ourselves. I am a doctor, your a doctor.

    • family doc

      i have to disagree with you drashish. my anesthesiology buddy from medical school makes between 350-400 grand/yr. it looks like his services are valued pretty well. dont you agree?

    • rwatkins

      But specialists have been waging war on generalists for the past 30 years, armed by the AMA’s RUV committee. Do you really expect us all to now sit around the circle and sing Kum Ba Ya?

  • PAUL MD

    At Dr. Reznick,
    Great concierge link from your photo. I think this will be well recieved in Boca.

    You are right in your assessment of the deconstruction of the consumate and comprehensive internist or general practitioner. I don’t claim to have an answer other than what has already evolved with specialty care. You truly seem to be a renaisance physician but you know as well as I do that “they ain’t mak’n em any more.” That is also a product of specialty care for better or worse.

    When it comes to areas of pivotal gravity in America (procedural results, baseball etc), trying to sell and support a “jack of all trades” comprehensive competency hits the wall of “master of one”. Your point is valid but because of the ravages of time in primary care education, PAs, APRNs and hospital implemented alogrithms as templates of care models, plethora of specialists and trial lawyers… the point has been made less relevant.

    It is sad. I would find being an internist in this climate very unfullfilling. On the other hand, I would cringe if optometrists were doing complex retinal eye surgeries because they passed a paper test. Not a fair comparison by any means as we are all physicians and optometrists are not, but a comparison of fear for public safety. Some turf wars have real skin on them, but I digress. Good response.

  • jsmith

    Buckeye Surgeon asserts above that significant pay raises for primary care docs are not economically feasible. That is a baseless assertion that does not stand up to analysis. Let’s look at some numbers. They are from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
    As of 2008 there were 661,000 practicing post-residency docs in the US. As of 2007 42.1% of these docs were IM, FM or peds. Assuming not much change in specialty distribution in only 1 year, we have 287000 generalists and 383000 specialists.
    Average 2008 compensation: $186000 for generalists, $340000 for specialists.
    Buckeye states that 10% is not much, and I agree with him. So if raising primary care salaries 10% won’t do much to increase supply, surely lowering specialists pay by 10% won’t do much to decrease supply. After all, they already earn much much more than we do, so they can afford a little belt-tightening. To disagree with this would be a bald-faced admission that specialists are not in fact intent on maximizing the health care status of the American people but are rather self-serving greedheads who don’t give a damn about anything but their over-inflated incomes. I am sure both Buckeye and I would immediately dismiss such a notion. As I said, specialists would have happy to take a 10% cut, for the greater good, so to speak.
    I’ll spare you the arithmetic details, but if that money were shifted to PC salaries, specialists would see their salaries cut to $306000 while primary care income would increase to $233000. Pediatricians (9.6% of all docs) are not currently in short supply. If we did not give them a raise or a pay cut and gave their share to IM and FM, those docs would see their income rise to $246000, a 32% rise above current levels. And the general public pays not one extra nickel. Not economically feasible? Hardly.
    It is in fact a triple win: Specialists take a tiny little pay cut, which would be more than compensated for by their increase in satisfaction from knowing that their patients now have better access to primary care, generalists get a nice raise, and the American people finally get some policy action that has a chance of getting enough doctors in the two adult primary care fields, fields that have been shown time and time again to improve population health and decrease costs compared with a specialist-larded medical system.

    • rwatkins

      Thank you!

    • Vox Rusticus

      So why should I, as a specialist, work just as hard for less money so someone else can make more for the same work they did before? I don’t see the equity issue being addressed. If primary care wants to earn more, then they need to improve their value added. Take care of more of the problems that you typically refer, and take the responsibility and liability for managing those same problems. If patients want to go to a specialist and they don’t need to, don’t cave in and write a referral. If they have to pay out of pocket for a specialist they want but don’t need, so be it.

      Oh, and you can cover your practice in the hospital also, just like the specialists have to.

      As another poster mentioned, consults are gone. We all get the same pay for the same office codes.

      Procedures carry inclusive care periods. Usually that is 90 days, whatever happens. Primary care does not have those issues. You get paid for every office visit. Yes, you may have to do a lot of office visits to make money. That is true for most specialists also.

      I am not buying that the specialists have to surrender practice income so that primary care doctors can carry on just as they have, but get paid more. You should have to do more valuable work and be more available to do it, even after working hours.

      As for the tons of uncompensated non-clinical work, that is an issue of business discipline, not something alien to specialists either. Set limits on what you will do for free and insist that patients who take up your non-contact time with burdensome administrative paperwork pay you for it.

      • jsmith

        Plop, and another one falls into the just price trap.

        • Vox Rusticus

          Increasing competition for available (and scarce) dollars for care by adding value to one’s services such that one captures more dollars that would otherwise go to specialists, how is that any kind of just price trap?

          • jsmith

            All these details get captured in the supply and demand curves, Vox, the aggregate analysis.
            That’s the beauty and power of aggregate analysis. It allows you to strip away the details that we in the trenches focus on and see what is going on in the market as a whole.
            The message of the market is loud and clear: a primary care shortage. My first post details some options for changing the supply curve.
            The overarching point here is that America’s health care needs are not being met in an efficient, economical manner because of a specialty maldistribution. Of course we can’t blame individual docs for that. It is a systems problem. But whether FMs can earn more money by going concierge or doing more procedures doesn’t enter into it. Nor does the fact that some think we should be doing more. These details are simply irrelevant to what this country justifiably cares about.
            It’s about attracting enough med students into the field, Vox, it’s about meeting society’s needs, not yours or mine.
            That’s what I’m talking about here.

        • Vox Rusticus

          The society’s needs are going to be reflected in the expression of demand. You cite a “need” for primary care, but where are the dollars voting to meet that need. Sure, some are showing in the rising market for concierge practices, but what about the larger segment of the market, the segment that would rather buy insurance rather than care, that demands referrals (paid for by insurance) rather than the convenience of care by a comprehensive care primary care doctor. To some degree, when government allows patients to go to EDs for non-emergent problems and requires coverage for these visits, then there is third-party market distortion, but don’t tell me that primary care isn’t at least partially complicit in that. Of course, government is a bigger actor that way, imposing penalties on doctors that even discuss pricing amongst themselves but does nothing when insurance carriers behave the same way, or at least give every indication of anti-competitive price-fixing.

          • rwatkins

            ‘You cite a “need” for primary care, but where are the dollars voting to meet that need.’

            Every primary care doc I know has more patients than they can handle and is turning patients away, but no dollars are following those patients due to the AMA’s intentional devaluation of cognitive services.

          • jsmith

            Wow, You really don’t get this.Or refuse to get it. Dollars voting with their feet. Come on, Vox.You know as well as I do that reimbursement is controlled by a cabal of specialists, the RBRVS advisory panel of the AMA. Pts voting with their feet has nothing to do with it. It’s political power of specialists.
            The rest of your post kicks up dust, throwing irrelevancies around. Reimbursement determines specialty choice among med students, and proceduralists control reimbursement. Don Berwick would like to change this. I hope he succeeds But doubt he will.

      • family doc

        dear vox,
        “I am not buying that the specialists have to surrender practice income so that primary care doctors can carry on just as they have, but get paid more.”

        you have NO idea what you are talking about. obviously you, like others, dont value what primary care docs do. so be it. but FYI, we work plenty hard and long hours just like you. and im talking about my peers in the medical center i am a member in, not just myself. i see many primary care docs working late, like me, and leaving late to the doctors parking lot just like the specialists. and my collegues from residency i have kept up with in other parts of the US also tell me they work long hours.

        so yes vox, you should, and i hope soon WILL be surrendering some of your income to the lower paid specialities because that is what many would call FAIR. specialists are being paid WAY TOO MUCH compared to primary care. simple as that. if medicare has to lower specialists reinbursements to increase primary care to keep the budget in the black- im all for it. its time primary care is OVERPAID and specialists underpaid (for only a brief time to show you all how it feels- then i suggest a better more fair and logical reinbursement scheme).

        you wrote “Oh, and you can cover your practice in the hospital also, just like the specialists have to.”
        gee vox, i do. so do my peers.

        regarding procedures: i would LOVE to do procedures, get paid alot of $, and cover that diagnosis for 90 days. procedures is how docs in ANY SPECIALITY make the bucks. where do i sign up? are you for real?

        you wrote “You should have to do more valuable work and be more available to do it, even after working hours”.
        no vox, we as primary care docs do provide valuable work, not valuable to you yes i get it, but we dont need to add MORE valuable work. we need to be paid more for the CURRENT work we do. dont believe me? fine. but you can see as well as anyone the mass exodus out of fam med/int med primary care. we arent paid enough so our specialty is dying.

        but thanks for telling me how little you think of me and my collegues i primary care. and how much you misunderstand what we do. it hurts, but its eye-opening.

        I KNOW I KNOW! tell all your primary care collegues face to face JUST WHAT YOU SAID IN YOUR POST. when you see them stop referring you patients, i know i would, then maybe finally you will value us.

        there, thats the solution.

        :)

        • Vox Rusticus

          family doc:

          I work every day. I see what goes on around me. I also see patients and get the same rates you get for the same office codes the non-specialists around me are getting. I fill out the same kinds of forms you fill out, patients and their family members expect me to fill out all their disability and FMLA papers, refill their prescriptions, chase after authorizations for studies they need, answer their phone calls, write to their doctors, all the paperwork you complain about. And I don’t get paid for that any more than you do. Do I do procedures? You bet. I trained several years and in a very demanding fellowship in my field. I get referrals because I have special skills, like any specialist.

          If you stopped referring me patients, how would that help you? How would that help your patients?

          Cognitive activity is undervalued across the board. My cognitive activity is undervalued, and a substantial part of my practice is spent in non-procedural work. I really doubt you would want to have to do that work, but if you have your way, you might just have to. Some of my procedural practice income offsets the money losing work I do. Without that, I suppose I would be in the same situation you seem to be in. If that seems like a solution to you, well good luck with that. Don’t expect me or any specialist, whether they do a few or a lot of procedures to agree with you.

          The fact is, primary care doctors in many places refer heavily. You may see the process leading to referral as a valuable cognitive service, worthy of being paid better than it is. I do know what that feels like, and every patient I see with vision loss who, after my workup ends up in the hands of a neurosurgeon, or a radiation oncologist, or a vascular surgeon or a rheumatologist has benefited from my service, but some other doctor will probably earn more from seeing that patient than I did.

          You have bought into the myth that the pie is fixed and thus we must fight one another for a share of that pie. I hear you rationalize that specialists are paid too much. I suppose you knew there would be some things you wouldn’t be doing when you chose the specialty you chose, just like I knew I wouldn’t be doing heart catheterizations or arthroscopies. But creating rancor–scorpions in a bottle–and accepting that anything you get that you want has to come from someone like me is not likely to lead you to success.

          People cite the appointments backlog for primary care doctors as if that were proof of a need. That is true if you also buy into the myth that all “needs” get to be defined by third-parties, as in the need for a $35.00 comprehensive office visit. I list that with the need for $5.00 haircuts.

          Getting more for your 992143 and 99214 is not likely to do anything but boost your income. If you don’t actually do more work, then you will still refer just as many patients to someone else, someone (probably not me, you said as much) who you would like to see get paid less for accepting your patient, someone who spent extra time in training and incurs extra practice costs and opportunity costs and liability and when the patient sees them is expected to solve whatever problem is presented. You have your work cut out for you there.

          Let me suggest something: I am not your enemy. I am not the one pushing your face in the dust, metaphorically speaking. Specialists have not been “at war” with generalists, as the poster above incorrectly states. Specialties do look out for their interests and you should expect them to, now and in the future. Look at how your payers treat you. Look at the ones that treat you the worst. Look at the ones that pay you less than it costs to do the work they ask you to do. Look at the ones that refuse to pay just claims, that delay your payment for weeks and months. Tell me then why you have bought into the idea that specialists are somehow responsible for your dissatisfaction.

          • jsmith

            Shorter Vox: I deserve my money. You don’t deserve more money. You should be happy with what you get.
            Sorry Vox, we don’t buy it. It’s political power, rent-seeking as the economists term it, that accounts for the present situation. The rest of your long post focuses on the irrelevant. Next case.

          • Vox Rusticus

            Fine, you want your money., go convince those who pay you that you earned it. Do what you can to collect it. Sure, play politics; no one says you can’t. Rent seeking? Who cares?

            Short enough for ya?

          • rwatkins

            Vox says:

            “go convince those who pay you that you earned it”

            But that’s not the problem. You keep ignoring the fact that it is the specialist-dominated AMA that determines the “relative” value of medical services.

            When I see a patient with CHF, COPD, hypertension, hyperlipidemia, DM with nephropathy and neuropathy, and depression, (all managed without consults) on 20 meds, requiring 8 pre-auths at every visit, it’s the AMA, not the marketplace or the payer, that says my work is worth a fraction of what’s paid for an uncomplicated colonoscopy (performed in a free-standing center that gets a facility fee, so the gastro’s overhead is minimal).

  • PAULMD

    @Vox

    That rate does seem high to me and I am wondering if my administrator gave me the ASC facility fee for the case and not the surgeon’s fee. I thought the surgeon’s fee was $600 and change. New Hampshire Medicare rates are usually 3rd or 4th worst in the nation so unless you are in MS, AL or LA, those numbers are suspect. I will inquire and correct. Thanks.

  • Hospitalist

    Why don’t you family guys just go concierge, u are the best position of any field to earn great money. Second, didn’t you go into your field with full disclosure? It’s not like anything has changed recently or is it that all u fam med people were sold on the “family med docs will be the gods of medicine” line during the 90s and now you are bitter that you aren’t. Why should all fields in medicine make the same? All fields in law don’t and neither do all fields in any job. I am a hospitalist, and I must admit that the people that went into those high paying specialties had much better grades and board scores than the avg family med or internal med person. Now those are the people who are making more money just like the people in law who do well make more.

    • Sharon MD

      I don’t want to go into concierge medicine because my patients can barely afford the bus to get to see me. Everybody has the right to do as she pleases with her education, and some people call me an idiot for wanting to provide excellent care to people who can’t afford concierge medicine, but I didn’t go to medical school to take care of people who can both afford insurance and concierge fees. I do know that my patients appreciate me, and that’s usually enough. If my student loans got paid off it would always be enough.

      • Jfk

        And that is your right. But let me warn you, rarely in life do we get the moral high ground and the riches we desire. So in other words you have cast your lot, but now you are unhappy that you can’t be smug and rich.

        • Sharon MD

          Like I said, I don’t want riches. I just want my loans paid off so I can take a job that is important & meaningful rather than having to jump into the rat race.

  • DVT

    Below is a link to a site with the best analysis that I have seen on how deceptive the income of primary care physicians really is. Everyone should read this. And this analysis doesn’t give full credit to the value of retiring in 20-30 years with a pension.

    http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

    The bureaucrats love to see physicians squabble about income as it helps them with their strategies to divide and conquer our lot.

  • Jfk

    The truth is that family med the way it is practiced by urbanites should be a 1 year training after medical school. Medical school is geared to primary care and after one year u could be a gp. Fps have no need the way they practice anymore to to have a 3 yr long residency when so much of the med school curriculum already focuses on the problems u see as an fp. Intact, this is how it used to be until fp wanted to become a “specialty” too.

    • Sharon MD

      Whoa JFK! That is REALLY SCARY. And another example of how unvalued family doctors are. To suggest that after finishing med school only 1 year of residency would be needed to provide quality comprehensive care to adults, children, and pregnant women is incredibly short-sighted. The reason family medicine became a specialty was due to the understanding that comprehensive care of the entire family required more training than “GPs” get, due to increased complexity of care. Some programs are experimenting with adding a 4th year because 3 doesn’t seem like enough.

      Aside from that, I’ll go out on a limb and say that one of the main reasons the pay gap bothers me is the amount of student loan debt I’m staring at. If just practicing primary care for 10 years, say, exempted me from paying back my loans, I don’t think I’d get as worked up about it.

    • family practitioner

      This is so wrong I do not know where to begin.
      If anything, family medicine should be expanded to 4 years, although the resources are just not there.

      • Jfk

        All the fps in my town refer everything. They do not see pts in the hospital and they haven’t delivered a baby since residency nor did they ever plan to. The majority of med school focuses on gen outpatient problems for children and adults and physicians used to not only refer with a one year specialty but treat comprehensively. Believe it or not but you can learn outside residency while making a real salary! But instead fps pretend that if u don’t know everything by the end of residency you will fail in the real world. This is the biggest myth ESP. When you can refer like most urban pcps do and continue to learn from ur patients!

  • HJ

    So isn’t the question what I value more…the cognitive time talking about cholesterol or the surgery that restores my eyesight?

    • Dr. Dredd

      Well, if the eyesight was lost because of a cholesterol embolism, perhaps a little time upfront discussing the risks of hyperlipidemia might have prevented the need for surgery.

      • HJ

        Perhaps, but you can’t quantify the value of the cholesterol discussion. If I never have a cholesterol embolism, then the money spent on the discussion is wasted. It’s clear that the cataract surgery is valuable. I don’t know anyone that has lost eyesight due to a cholesterol embolism. Both my parents, both my in-laws, my grandmother and a neighbor have had cataract surgery. Anyway, if I want to know something about cholesterol, I can Google it. I can’t perform cataract surgery.

        • Sharon MD

          Yes, the average Joe can google cholesterol and can’t perform cataract surgery. And that’s the mentality that has led us to this proceduralist vs cognitivist divide.

        • CST

          Anyone who can open a person up and fix him with all the risks involved – avoiding nerves, arteries, ureters – deserves to make more than they probably do. Clinicians deserve to make a lot but surgeons should make more.

          • HJ

            “proceduralist vs cognitivist divide”

            You have a cognitive treatment for cataracts?

          • Vox Rusticus

            No, but I do have one for “I can’t see.”

  • Listo

    It is quite easy to find someone willing to cut you open. Look at the yellow pages.

    But now, it is hard to find a doctor who can reliably tell you whether that is a good idea, or not.

    • jp

      Listo- Exactly! The value of restraint is extremely undervalued in american medicine.

      All too many patients in distress from a diagnosis ask me, “What can we do about this?” I tell them, many things, but the question should be, “What SHOULD we do about this?”

  • anon

    does supply and demand work in determining physician incomes? there are well run practices that allow pediatricians to make 250k and poorly run practices that keep ophthalmologists under 300k. admittedly these are probably the exception rather than the rule.
    but if we believe in supply and demand, then we don’t have to worry. as the supply dwindles, demand will force the incomes or primary care physicians back up. yes it might be painful. the biggest impediment i see to primary care thriving is that there are a lot of small practices out there. no way to achieve economies of scale and negotiating power when there are 5 and 8 person groups. a decision has to be made whether independence and autonomy is worth the financial impact now being experienced.

    i don’t see anything vox has to say as inflammatory btw. some of you guys are perhaps a little sensitive about this issue. i’m surprised kaiser internist isn’t here boasting about how norcal primary docs make 300k and see 15 patients a day. those are the kind of claims that hurt primary care imo. they sabotage efforts to reform primary care payments to allow for an increased income.

    why do the primary docs think 300k-400k is outrageous. primary docs should make 300k-400k. lots of midlevel vp’s and executives and sales people in the small town i live in make around 200-300k. i would think fp’s should make more than them. jmo.

    • fam med

      if you think all of a sudden (or even over time) that all primary care docs are going to be making 300k-400k just like the specialists, you are crazy. its not going to happen, although i my opinion its a great idea. therefore, there are alota primary care docs, like myself, who are quite irrate that the specialists are making a bankroll and we are not and never will. sure we are sensitive on this topic- every day we work we see our collegues getting twice what we make and its not fair.

      • anon

        well primary care docs averaging 300k won’t happen without some hard work. compromises have to be made amongst primary care docs and they have to organize themselves into larger groups and agree to work together.
        people who make 300-400k in medicine are typically working harder and smarter, meaning they are aggressively working the insurance negotiation side as well as the payroll and overhead costs. they may have invested in labs and equipment that generate ancillary fees. most of the primary care docs i come across do not enjoy this part of the business and more or less stick their heads in the sand and hope it will be alright.

        the one thing that made me really sad is that you say that you are irate that you see specialists making twice what you make. do other financially successful people make you just as irate, or is it reserved for those you somehow feel closer to since you went to medical school as they did?

        at what point does it make sense to go back and retrain yourself if it makes you that unhappy? the income differential appears to be such that you can more than make up for it in less than 7 years. my wife is in primary care and she works half time and since the advent of hospitalists she has a fantastic lifestyle. she doesn’t make much compared to many, but her quality of life is outstanding, if you ask her, compared to a lot of her specialist colleagues.

  • PAULMD

    As promised, below are the correct cataract surgery physicians’ fees in NH:

    uncomplicated CE/IOL $700.83
    complicated CE/IOL $973.73
    ASC facility fee $959.27

    • fam med

      am i understanding correctly that the opthomologist gets paid 700 bucks paid to himself for a 20 minute uncomplicated cataract surgery?

  • Jo

    I am for any professional to be able to charge anything he or she thinks they can get for their training, and years of experience and expertise and let the market dictate viability of such a charge, but…..medicine is not a free market is it?

    I am for reimbursement being set for all physicians based on the cost of training, the ongoing costs of being in the business, plus the cost of providing the care, the time it takes to provide the care (at a professional rate of around $300 per hour pro-rated per visit) with a $5000 bonus annually for however many years of experience. Of for proceduralists how many hours of “fly” time they have aquired.

    When you look at it that way you can see why 1-3 primary care physician practices are so resentful. They have the highest overhead cost to do what they do (no hospital or group splitting the cost for any of the “facility” or equipment” ) yet they get paid pennies on the dollar at about 50% of their charges which with many visits does not cover the cost of providing the care.

    Personally I think the squeese should be between physicians and malpractice attorneys payouts, look at it this way where would they be without physciians?!! Or maybe insurance companies CEOs that is even better.

    The problem is again, the government is an insurance company and it is overrun with those in office being attorneys.

Trending