Measles from rejecting vaccines, and the price society pays

Vaccine rejectionism is based on a profound lack of knowledge about immunology, statistics and science. Virtually every single empirical claim of vaccine rejectionism is factually false, but parents who lack even the most basic understanding of immunology are often incapable of evaluating those empirical claims.

Indeed, those parents most likely to proclaim themselves “educated” on the topic are generally the most ignorant.

A new paper on a recent measles outbreak, Measles Outbreak in a Highly Vaccinated Population, San Diego, 2008: Role of the Intentionally Undervaccinated, provides insight into the erroneous beliefs eagerly adopted by gullible and credulous parents.

… They reported substantial skepticism of the government, pharmaceutical industry, and medical community. They believed vaccination was unnecessary, because most vaccine preventable diseases had already been reduced to very low risk by improvements in water, sanitation, and hygiene and were best prevented by “natural lifestyles,” including prolonged breastfeeding and organic foods. In contrast to the immunity produced by disease, they felt that vaccines could damage the immune system while producing a number of other immediate and long-term adverse health conditions, particularly those involving the child’s neurologic system.

The paper highlights yet another false empirical claim of vaccine rejectionism. To the extent that they consider the impact of their actions on others, vaccine rejectionists falsely believe that no others can or will be harmed by their refusal to vaccinate their children.

In the San Diego measles outbreak, fully 25% of the children who became ill were too young to be fully vaccinated. In addition, 48 children too young to be fully vaccinated had to be quarantined because of known exposure to an affected child. Although only a small number of children was ultimately affected (12 cases of measles), the total cost of the outbreak was over $175,000 of which $125,000 was born by the taxpayers.

It is instructive to explore the way in which the disease spread:

On January 13, 2008, the 7-year-old male index patient returned from Switzerland, asymptomatic but incubating measles. He transmitted infection to his 9-year-old unvaccinated sister and 3-year-old unvaccinated brother. On January 24, 2008, after 2 days of fever and conjunctivitis, the index patient attended charter school A. Forty-one of the 377 students (11%) at charter school A were unvaccinated for measles because of personal beliefs, and 2 children became infected. The next day … the index patient was taken to pediatric clinic A … No respiratory precautions were taken, 6 children were exposed, 5 were unvaccinated, and 4 were infected (3 infants too young for vaccination and a 2-year-old whose parents had intentionally delayed measles vaccination)…

…The index patient’s sister infected 2 schoolmates and exposed an unknown number of children at a dance studio. One infected classmate of the index patient infected his own younger brother and exposed 10 children at a pediatric clinic, 18 children and adults at a clinical laboratory, and an unknown number at 2 grocery stores and a circus. Another infected classmate of the index patient exposed an unknown number at an indoor amusement facility. Four secondary patients from clinic A returned to the same clinic while symptomatic on 4 separate days … thus exposing 37 children. Of these same 4 patients, 1 exposed an additional 95 children in a preschool on 2 consecutive days, 6 patients at an outpatient laboratory, and 47 children at a swimming-instruction facility; the second patient exposed children in the same swimming class; the third patient exposed 55 students in a school and 10 persons at an outpatient laboratory; and the fourth patient potentially exposed 166 passengers on an airplane flight to Hawaii.

Ultimately 73 children, including intentionally unvaccinated children and children too young to be vaccinated, were quarantined for 21 days each because of significant exposure to measles.

The San Diego outbreak was a small exposure in a city with high vaccination rates. Therefore, the outbreak was easily contained. But there would have been no outbreak at all if it weren’t for the vaccine rejectionists. The outbreak was brought into the community by an intentionally unvaccinated child and initially spread by other intentionally unvaccinated children. Even though the outbreak was easily contained, one quarter of children who became ill were too young to be vaccinated, and the taxpayers spent $125,000 containing an outbreak that was entirely avoidable.

Vaccine rejectionists don’t hurt just their own children, they hurt everyone else’s children and they cost the taxpayers large sums of money to contain the results of their gullibility. San Diego ought to present a bill for $125,000 to the parents of the intentionally unvaccinated child who introduced measles into the city. Perhaps compelling vaccine rejectionists to put their money where their mouth is might make them think twice about exposing the rest of us to preventable diseases.

Amy Tuteur is an obstetrician-gynecologist who blogs at The Skeptical OB.

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  • Ben H

    Dr. Tuteur,
    Thank you for this compelling piece. I’ll be sure to use it in my own battle to get a vaccine rejectionist in my family to do what’s right by her children, as well as everyone else’s.

  • http://theanxiousparent.com Dr. Gonzalez

    I am convinced there is a subset of rejectionist that can not be reasoned with, because we (doctors, pediatricians) are part of the big conspiracy. Any argument we use or explanation we give is tossed aside as part of the conspiracy and cover-up.

  • stargirl65

    Children that have not been vaccinated due to refusal should be excluded from all schools. It is unfair for them to expose other children needlessly. It is impossible to exclude them from everything since many activities (swimming lessons etc) do not require vaccination histories. Maybe we can just put a giant V on their forehead so everyone knows to keep away?

    These people are selfish and stupid. They are getting a free ride on herd immunity. If everyone refused the shots then the diseases would become prevalent again. We would go back 100 years when many children died at a very young age from these illnesses or many were disabled due illnesses like polio.

    These shots need to be mandatory, not optional.

    • http://twitter.com/AliceARobertson Alice

      Stargirl65 said: These people are selfish and stupid. They are getting a free ride on herd immunity. If everyone refused the shots then the diseases would become prevalent again. We would go back 100 years when many children died at a very young age from these illnesses or many were disabled due illnesses like polio.

      These shots need to be mandatory, not optional.
      [end quote]

      Hi! I wonder if the rejectionists went back into hiding! I am specifically speaking to Stargirl65 here, because I usually enjoy her posts, but don’t you think the “selfish and stupid” part is a bit overreactionary? And tread carefully with the “mandatory” stuff. You may kill someone’s child, and mess up your own parental rights. I have this First Amendment fetish goin’ on, and really think when we call in the big guns of the government we need to really think about what we are doing and the repercussions. I would think doctors of all people would step back from government mandating. Sure it’s great to get some government funding for certain projects, but ultimately, I tend to believe there are few free lunches. Our liberties are worth protecting. I know…….I know……..you are going to say not at the cost of your kids, but what about the kids the shots have killed (isn’t that why there is a wavier? And isn’t that why many shots are now made overseas? Lawsuits? I have a little cousin of two years old who died days after getting the MMR [four years ago]. It was the saddest funeral I have ever been to. The pediatrician came up to the hospital and cried like a baby and threw herself on the child’s body she was so distraught. So, when people here want to talk about experience-led decisions by doctors, this pediatrician’s life is forever changed. She knew it was the shot, but had a copy of the waiver to protect her. And on one level I don’t think she deserves to be sued, because she really and truly thought the shots were a good thing).

      I really believe the answer is in doctors kindly educating and not getting this flustered that they halt a good debate with a patient. Slamming the door on a patient who says they don’t want to immunize, or if the patient perceives you consider them to be “stupid” isn’t going to help that person consider immunizing their child (isn’t that your ultimate goal?). In truth, I believe it’s a bit unprofessional for a doctor to do what the doctor did to me when she yelled (loudly), “GET OUT OF MY OFFICE!” In hindsight, it’s quite funny, but her argument was really lame, and she kept bringing up polio in her home country as the base of her recommendation.

      I would, ultimately, think you may win one battle and lose a war. You will not gain support by labeling a group of parents with the same brush………not as long as their injured children are in the news. That said again I make the point that the shots are becoming safer. That should be a key to a discussion (yes, I firmly believe in discussion and not angry, labeling overreactions) with a patient. Be well-informed yourself and you won’t find these debates so harrowing.

  • Dr. Pi

    This has been my experience too. I live by a big school of “Natural Medicine” and many parents remain unconvinced even with overwhelming evidence. i harbor hope that I have planted a seed of doubt in their minds that will flourish.

  • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

    What amazes me is that vaccine rejectionists think that they can make decisions about vaccines without basic knowledge of immunology. Since they don’t understand how the immune system works, they easily fall for bizarre theories about the “dangers” of vaccines.

  • Alice

    What a condescending way to make a point. I know doctors don’t always realize this, but many seem to make it look like only the ultra-educated doctors can make these lofty type of decisions (my doctors overall either didn’t immunize, or ordered special vaccines, and many lawyers won’t touch their children with the shots, so it’s not about our level of education). One could deduce here that maybe doctors think only doctors and public school officials are equipped to make such decisions. Maybe we should take away the parent’s rights because surely “Doctor Knows Best”! :)

    Have you ever considered some people actually study the claims and research and still don’t want the shots? Or are the “small people” (sorry, I can’t resist and wonder if the small people will be making cameos on SNL) just assumed to be surfs who only operate on emotions and the poor dears just can’t comprehend the danger their unimmunized little darlings are to society? Ugh……..facetious alter!

    Years ago I remember Money Magazine did quite a piece on immunizations. The internet and all it’s problems still means empowered patients, and doctors need to get with the program and deal with their patients on that level. Doctors are not going to be greeted with the old monikers of, “Oh Wise One” anymore! :) And people aren’t buying the “Preventable Disease” defense when there are cases where the kids got the shot and still got the disease (the American Academy of Pediatrics used to have this on their site. I am behind a bit, but at one time it posted that 80% of the kids who had pertussis were immunized). Why do you leave these items out of the conversation? Just lay the cards on the table and give ALL the details and let the parents decide.

    I hope anyone reading this would just read about each individual disease and see the risks are so small (look at polio and rubella that have been wiped out of the U.S., or look at tetanus with all it’s hype and misinformation. The CDC has the info about this. Even my own pediatrician who I LOVE followed me out to the waiting room and called me back to discuss what she had found in the medical book. It turned out I was right, and she is to be commended for seeking the truth, not an agenda). Make a list of each disease and see that most of them are wiped out or containable. Yes, there will be deaths, there always will be. And many of those deaths will be from a doctor not diagnosing quickly enough (look at H1N1 and the kids that were literally sent home to die…….by who? …….doctors. It wasn’t the parents who were negligent then was it?). And there will be deaths from the shots. Do they still make parents sign away their rights before these earth moving shots that are going to save mankind?

    My kids put your kids at risk? Not right after you get the shot and your child has a portion of the disease. Well, that is if the shot worked at all…….and in some cases the shot itself is so lame (and so unreliable because each shot couldn’t have the same portion of the disease which means some kids get nothing and no immunization, and some kids get a lot……..golly i should be the immunologist…….oh that’s right…..I’m just a silly mom….). I think doctors are displaying a false sense of bravado.

    I say let parents decide, and tell the doctors to do their job and educate and stop the “Chicken Little” act………..ewww………..hmmm……..maybe I shouldn’t be so dramatic……..but……..hey……..it’s the internet……..gotta have some flare to make a point. Although, I admit if I were a doctor I couldn’t be so cavalier. Maybe there is an immunization to stop my cyber-dramatics? Oh how I appreciate my freedom! :)

    • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

      “many seem to make it look like only the ultra-educated doctors can make these lofty type of decisions”

      No, not just doctors, but definitely only people who have a basic working knowledge of immunology, virology and statistics. Without knowledge of those three disciplines it is impossible to make an informed decision about vaccination. There is simply no way for people without such knowledge to evaluate the claims of professional vaccine rejectionists.

      Why not learn more? You might be very surprised at what you find out.

    • DO Student Doc

      Alice wrote:

      “look at polio and rubella that have been wiped out of the U.S…”

      Actually, polio is far from wiped out in this or any country. Polio is caused by a soil-borne virus. This is why, in the pre-Salk days, there were tremendous outbreaks of polio every spring, as new, unexposed kids went outside to play in the dirt. As a result, unvaccinated kids in the U.S. are very much at risk of getting polio and do so every year.

  • Marc Gorayeb, MD

    I don’t know if this is being done, but it seems that pediatricians and family practitioners should emphasize the difference between essential vaccinations for public health vs. those that are beneficial primarily for the individual being vaccinated. Parents are being confronted with so many vaccines that it may be overwhelming and leading to an irrational blanket rejection of all of them.

    This is not a trivial point. I was personally nonplussed by my daughter’s college administrators insisting that she be vaccinated against meningitis. Some state governments have attempted to mandate HPV vaccinations. Parents are also faced with Hepatitis B vaccine, varicella vaccine, HFlu vaccine. In these cases, the benefit is mostly directed to the individual, and that should be made clear to parents. Then they may be more willing to consider the relatively small number of vaccines that are truly important for the immediate health of the community.

    Progressive encroachments on our individual liberties, no matter how well-meaning, cause unintended consequences, such as the loss of a critical community vaccination rate.

    • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

      “I was personally nonplussed by my daughter’s college administrators insisting that she be vaccinated against meningitis.”

      Why?

  • Auntie Boddie

    Is this tale of panic and over reaction real? Quarantine? For measles? What is happening in the US?

    I see nothing about what happened to those who contracted measles during this epidemic. Deaths? Encephalitis? Deafness? Or just spots and a lifetime of immunity (and antibodies that can be passed through breast milk to protect the very young)? Measles is normally only a risk if you are vitamin A deficient.

    How many fully vaccinated caught measles? That statistic is usually well hidden in these reports. It is the vaccinated who suffer from “atypical measles” and suffer complications. Still worth a lifetime of expensive boosters?

    Why no mention that this completely disproves the fire break theory of “herd immunity”; people are not trees, they move about. For it to work you would need 100% effective vaccines for 100% of the population and you would need to ban travel and have everyone stand still. Viruses can be carried on the hands and clothing of the immune.

    Chicken pox can have fatal complications and result in shingles later in life, yet chicken pox parties still happen.

    Polio’s not a great example either. Cases of polio had fallen dramatically /before/ vaccination started; and since then are largely diagnosed as “aseptic meningitis”. Most cases actually diagnosed as polio in the west are caused by the immunocompromised being exposed to the live vaccine.

    • DO Student Doc

      Auntie Boddie,

      They were quarantined because of this:

      http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gvunSjoIuSsX5AuwdPOnlghcfGQw

      It’s a link to the story of nearly a thousand folks dying in Africa during a measles outbreak.

      The problem is that we have had such a successful vaccination program against measles for so long that no one realizes that measles is indeed a potentially fatal disease. That’s the premise behind many of the rejectionists’ claims, that the disease is really no problem and the risk of their child becoming part of the “one in a million” who has an adverse reaction is greater than the chance of them actually getting the disease.

      With some diseases that almost works. However, with environmentally acquired diseases like Polio (a soil-borne virus), it doesn’t. If you don’t get vaccinated, the chances of getting polio are extremely high.

      Success has become our own worst enemy. We have about two generations of people who have not experienced the disease burden from no vaccinations and are now suggesting that the vaccinations that provide that protection are not necessary. It would take only a generation for all that work to be undone and for us to be thrown back into the dark days.

  • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

    ‘Why no mention that this completely disproves the fire break theory of “herd immunity”;”

    Because it doesn’t. Herd immunity is BASED on the fact that no vaccine is 100% effective or can be given to everyone. This is exactly what I mean when I say that vaccine rejectionists lack even the most basic understanding of immunology and virology. If you don’t understand how vaccines work, and clearly you don’t, how can you possibly make an informed decision about them?

  • Alice

    Why not learn more? You might be very surprised at what you find out. [end quote]

    Well……..I think your comments show you are depending on credentials and not common sense. That’s why I used the word “lofty”. Oh yes, golly, I am not a linguist, so I shouldn’t use the English language like that! :)

    Amy I teach literature (and sometimes debate) and I would not tell you that you have no skills to decipher an author’s intent, so you may want to step back and give us a quick lesson in immunology. Why keep such vital learning all to yourself? Enlighten us…….and tell me how the shots help my child’s immune system. Considering some people drop dead after the flu shots……I want convinced so I can be first in line for that event…my immune system can’t wait! :)

    Why can’t you just understand that some people (even immunologists who can think outside-the-box) understand the debate and disagree. It’s not that they lack comprehension.

    You know if someone really understands a topic they can explain it in a manner that a ten-year-old understands. How about entertaining me? Because it’s not that you are speaking over our heads………it’s that your writings seem to share that you don’t have a full grip on the whole debate (which would include understanding where your opponent is coming from). I understand the other side of the debate, and don’t want the shots. Sounds simple enough to me. But then again I have a lot to learn! :)

  • http://www.notebookingdiscovery.org/wordpress Alice

    Amy I wanted to say that sometimes my sardonic sense of humor doesn’t come through and I apologize if I have sounded condescending (my family sits with me while I post…….hence all the typos, and missing words……..but they smile at my posts because they know me……..but for those who don’t it may not come off as funny. Sorry!).

    Anyhoo………while I have your ear I really am sincere when I ask what your response to this small excerpt from a doctor of a large medical site posted. What if others (those in the field who do understand the immune system better than the “small people” the oil company calls us) and understand the supposed mystery of the immune system, believe the vaccines could hurt a child’s immune system to the point they will be more susceptible to cancer when they are older. We have seen what the long-term affects of let’s say Ritalin are on certain people, along with other drugs (and it’s medically proven some kids just shouldn’t get the measles shot. A neurologist and pediatric nurse won a large court case by proving this). Can you without hesitation give an explanation as to why this medical assumption about the immune system is false (below)?

    With two of my children having cancer (one immunized, and one not), and one having to drink the Atomic Cocktail last fall I am a bit hypersensitive to the immune system compromise my daughter battles (she is a vegetarian also, because we believe it’s helpful for her immune system). We want to build the immune system, not tear it down. My daughter will soon be having a neck dissection, so I hope you can understand my concern for keeping her immune system as healthy as it can be.
    [start]
    Vaccines, all vaccines, are immune suppressing; that is they depress our immune functions. The chemicals in the vaccines depress our immune system; the virus present depresses immune function, and the foreign DNA/RNA from animal tissues depresses immunity. Toraldo, et al found that the chemotaxis and metabolic function of PMNs (polymorphonuclear neutrophils) was significantly reduced after vaccinations were given and did not return to normal for months. Other indicators of immune system depression included reduced lymphocyte viability, neutrophil hyper-segmentation, and a reduced white cell count. All vaccines are immune depressing to some extent and that is the trade-off we are risking. The medical thought is that we trade a small immune depression for an immunity to one disease. Now let me repeat, we are trading a total immune system depression (our only defense against all known disease – including millions of pathogens) for a temporary immunity against one disease, usually an innocuous childhood disease. Therefore, the trade is not at all fair. Mullins puts it this way, “Are we trading mumps and measles for cancer and AIDS.”

    The trade-off is not worth the risk. We are risking getting many more diseases than we are “preventing” from getting.
    [end of snip]

    • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

      Alice,

      You are simply proving my point for me. I know that the scientese that you cut and pasted from some vaccine rejectionist website sounds very impressive to you. However, it merely demonstrates that you don’t understand even the most basic concepts of immunology.

      Lik I said above, make an effort to learn immunology. I can guarantee you will be very surprised at what you learn, and you will be embarrassed at the absolute nonsense that you just posted.

      • Alice

        Lik I said above, make an effort to learn immunology. I can guarantee you will be very surprised at what you learn, and you will be embarrassed at the absolute nonsense that you just posted>>>>>>>>

        Amy to keep blaming the opponent while you remain unteachable isn’t serving this topic well. The debate is null-and-void while you remain so firm that your opponents are numskulls.

        It wasn’t a scientist’s website I used, it was probably the largest internet site online run by a doctor. You, once again, showed you are not open to discussion of facts…….which means I tend to feel very sorry for your patients because a doctor’s job is to educate them (isn’t that what we pay for? Or do you expect blind trust from your patients too? If you do, then you have just walked right into the old stereotype that patients decry, and other doctors here should be bending over backwards to educate the public and their patients to break that horrible stereotype that is hurting the real practice of medicine [and their own reputations when they back up this type of expectation of blind trust. You aren’t treating idiots……sorry my dramatic flare again).

  • http://theanxiousparent.com Dr. Gonzalez

    As I commented earlier, there are people that will never see the merits of vaccines… no matter how many Internet posts are made. I think jabbing a fork in my eye may be more palatable than trying to argue about vaccines on the Internet. Since I am just one of the brainwashed doctors who makes a fortune giving vaccines, right? My motives are twisted, correct? Yet, my masochistic tendencies prevent me from not responding.

    Chicken pox and influenza were mentioned above. I have been in practice for less then 10 years, and I have personally taken care of a child who died from influenza (myocarditis) and a child who died from Chickenpox. Neither were immunized, both could have likely been prevented.

    • Alice

      quote: Since I am just one of the brainwashed doctors who makes a fortune giving vaccines, right? My motives are twisted, correct? Yet, my masochistic tendencies prevent me from not responding. [end quote]

      Yikes! I understand your discouragement (hoping it doesn’t turn into resentment), but that’s quite a summation. I really think it’s in a doctor’s best interest to debate. Iron sharpens iron and this can only prepare you for the day a mom like me walks into your office. I can honestly say I don’t believe your motives are “twisted”. I think your motives (and mine) are quite good, but please be patient with your patients who do have valid points about big pharm, dangerous shots, etc. My motto in a debate is to not fear because the more the truth is exposed the better decisions I can make.

      I guess the airplane analogy comes into affect here. If your teen daughter was leaving for college and they told you that on the plane of 500 passengers …..oh let’s say…..5 will surely die or become violently sick. Would you let your child get on that plane? It’s Russian Roulette with these shots (unless you have a crystal ball in your office), so apprehensive parents who study this should be dealt with respect, not the holier than thou attitude. From what I have read so far, in this particular debate, some doctors are moaning and labeling, but few real facts (it’s really an old debate technique to put an opponent on the defensive. One used when one can’t really explain themselves well). It feels like a wiping stick has been used to beat down moms (and I can sense you feel the same way, but your rant was a wide sweeping brush stroke I am hoping I wasn’t a part of. If I insinuated any of your summation, I apologize), and I am too old to care that much, but I am still waiting on some real information (oops… that’s right…….I wouldn’t understand it! :) . What a shock it must be to one’s system when a mere mother challenges a credentialed doctor on an intellectual level, and that credentialed person responds in arrogance and a lack of knowledge to be able to educate the person (but, also, to understand why a mom would choose this path).

      Anyhoo…….I appreciated your feedback, but golly………I hope others don’t feel this misunderstood……or too insecure to actually debate such a vital topic.

  • Primary Care Internist

    A couple of points for the conspiracy theorists:

    1 – pediatricians typically LOSE MONEY on ordering/storing/administering vaccines. And andrew wakefield was being paid by trial lawyers, and eventually was proven to be a fraud and stripped of his license.

    2 – since vaccines can NEVER be 100% effective, there is a statistical “curve” that estimates what threshold of people vaccinated will likely lead to wiping out polio/measles/etc. So just because an individual kid got vaccinated, it doesn’t guarantee he/she won’t get the disease. And conversely, just because one didn’t get vaccinated, doesn’t guarantee he/she will contract the disease if exposed. This is the concept of herd immunity – if we all just look at it from our own individual perspective, and we don’t hit that threshold of vaccination, it’s bad for EVERYONE.

    3- sure, kids die of influenza, H1N1 etc. But kids die in car crashes when they’re in carseats too. Does that mean we do away with carseats??? Again it’s all about the odds, and when it comes to your kids health, wouldn’t you want to play the odds?

    I think as doctors are more pressured by all forces these days, we as a group don’t have the time or patience to try to convince people to do the right thing, or to explain the evidence, especially when they’ve already made up their minds and we’ve nothing to gain by arguing our points.

  • soaringcanary

    Thank you all for the lively and educational discourse. I too, as a layperson/mother/survivor/intelligent individual was ‘put off’ my Dr. Tuteur’s condescending premise that those who don’t believe the way she does or know enough about immunology were somehow being [belligerently] irresponsible. Believe me, the majority of us who do the research are most assuredly not. Dr. Tuteur might do herself a favor by stepping away from the pharmaceutical forest long enough to stand in the shoes of empathy with those who feel ‘more well’ without the invasive and still dubious benefit of multiple vaccines. After raising two children in the 70′s when the norm for a full complement of vaccines [from birth to kindergarten/age 5] was about 10-15 injections total, it is shocking to me these days that it is from their first day of life that the most vulnerable [and voiceless] children with their inherently underdeveloped immune systems are being inundated with SO MANY vaccines. And this is the MAJOR issue…as too much of [even] a good thing administered too early is never a ‘sure’ thing. Not when ‘natural immunity’ is achieved by allowing the body to go through an illness to build up antibodies against a virus and achieve ‘life long’ immunity…and yet, with most if not all of the prophylactic vaccines and their necessary boosters, any [possible*] immunity [*i.e. seasonal flu shots] is only a ‘temporary’ reality. So, while there are live, dead, and foreign ingredients [diseased animal tissue/adjuvants/mercury/aluminum/chick embryos/etc.] in most of these vaccines, how in the world can this ‘do a body good’ over the long term? For one example, and in less than three years, statistics now reveal how Merck’s HPV Gardasil vaccine kills, sickens an/or paralyzes, sometimes within hours. At age 49, my mother died from cervical cancer and were she alive today, I would never recommend this vaccine, but instead, educate her to bolster her immune system [stop smoking/eat quality food/use antioxidants/get routine sleep/adequate exercise] so as to naturally eradicate [immunologically overwhelm] such common virus. I was one of the children in the 50′s to receive Salk’s new polio vaccine…and while it is true that I have never contracted polio, there have been plenty of ‘autoimmune’ [immune hypersensitivity] issues over my entire adult life. As a child, I suffered from multiple Staph aureus infections [boils/rashes/flues/Scarlet Fever] until by age 43 [while a 'fit' jogger] I almost died due to sudden onset of Staphylococcal/Streptococcus Toxic Shock Syndrome [TSS-1/pyrogenic blood poisoning]…and after connecting all of these dots, I have asked myself; so how did those earliest experimental [still today] vaccines play into this life-long and underlying challenge by ‘weakening’ [destabilizing] my immune system? That being said, and while I am also] a survivor of the [formerly] typical childhood diseases [long before advent of vaccines] like chicken pox, measles, German measles, and Mumps, it is with thanks again to the natural immunity [allowing illness to take its course] that I have not had these illnesses a second time. Lastly, I will end on this amazing fact: While he is my mentor in being such a model of life-long health and stamina, I have the privilege of enjoying my “97″ year old father-in-law who has NEVER had one vaccine in his life. Needless to say Dr. Tuteur, every person is unique…and this means there is no ethical or humane way for the AMA or your bias in training to lump us all into a herd commodity since, individually, this will not achieve either the safest or smartest outcome. You are too harsh with criticism against the parents who, in most cases, have diligently done their homework and with those conclusions, are making sound decisions when they care so deeply about the long term safety and well-being of their own children. From the perspective of my advocacy for three elderly parents [all in 90's] the allopathic medical community has far too many narrow-minded doctors [also lacking empathy] who are doing a grave disservice to their those whom they claim to serve; not to dictate to or scold, but to educate and serve. For genuine realization or restoration of health, there MUST be a two-way dialogue between mutually interested and dynamically engaged individuals who seek the balanced homeostasis of the human body….and those of us who oppose big pharma’s unsafe and illogical agenda with the multiple vaccines [on the horizon; to lose weight, stop smoking, lower blood sugar!!], do know via our education, intuition and common sense how this profit-oriented strategy is anything BUT stabilizing for a ‘balanced’ immune system. Thanks for listening…and since I think you do care, thanks for your willingness to consider what each responder in this post is willing to share from their own lives, hopefully, for your enlightened awareness. Be Well.

  • Alice

    I think as doctors are more pressured by all forces these days, we as a group don’t have the time or patience to try to convince people to do the right thing, or to explain the evidence, especially when they’ve already made up their minds and we’ve nothing to gain by arguing our points.

    [end quote]

    Are you an immunologist? wink…….and teasing

    I agree about the odds, but that’s one of the main reasons I don’t immunize. It’s not a lack of understanding about how the immune system or how shots work. My daughter has doctors who disagree on how much radiation is too much, and she is at one of the top hospitals in America. One can completely understand a process and still disagree with it.

    But doctors proclaiming the time factor as a reason for not educating their patients also seems a bit like a cop-out (though a realistic one). Your patients often rely completely on you for information. Sure they can study the internet, but that isn’t a prerequisite for seeing a doctor. If doctors have that type of mentality it will just create more patients who are reading The Decision Tree (great book) and self-empowering, and self-treating themselves. They will think their doctor doesn’t have time for them. The mental picture of a doctor with his hand on a doorknob asking trying to escape can often mean the patient moves on.

    Not sure I agree on the income aspect of the shots (Money Magazine covered this pretty well).

    You know…….I come here to post and help doctors to understand what a mother may be thinking while sitting in his examining room. And as a mother I think you should at least have a hand-out that explains the mom will be signing away her rights, and why you are promoting the shots, and if she wants a conversation about it to set up a time you can talk to her. Or give her your e-mail address and share websites. As a patient I think that would serve me well, and you! At the very least a chart that will tell her a full disclosure of what the risks are with the shot and without it. Surely, that is a doctor’s job? If she protesth too much don’t you have the right to send her a letter saying she has 30 days to find a new pediatrician (that is if you feel that strongly about an unvaccinated child under your care?)

    • bw

      Alice,

      Your sarcasm about the internet’s knowledge is not lost on me. But I do think you can recognize that the internet is knowledge without wisdom, fact without experience. That to me is the biggest difference in the essential arguments between patients such as yourself, and physicians such as Dr. Tuteur. It is a difference between what one feels, and what one has seen, and while feelings are not to be ignored, it is impossible to rationally argue the veracity of what one feels.

      Additionally, the argument is from different levels of experience. I presume, though the attitude of your internet persona does not indicate, that you recognize that a person who devotes their lives to the study of a discipline would have a more formidable knowledge than someone who has not. Just as I have read Steinbeck, Huxley, and Hemingway, I would not presume that my experience in Literature was equal to your own.

      From these two pillars, I am astounded at the vehemence, sarcasm, and condescension that takes place on both sides of this argument. That the patient is the ultimate decider of their health should not be up for debate. It is the essence of Informed Consent, and a principle of medical ethics. Without it, an unconsented immunization is simple battery. However, that the physician is expert in these medical matters, over the patient, should not be open for debate to a rational person with an ounce of humility and perspective. It isn’t a matter of arrogance, it is a matter of role, just as a lawyer is expert in legal matters, and the teacher an expert in education over their student.

      Finally, it is entirely up to a patient to decide whether they wish to immunize their children or not. It is also entirely up to their physician to build a relationship based on trust, to educate the patient of the benefits and potential risks of immunization. It is also up to the physician to do so with the utmost professionalism and respect for the patient. When all these are remembered, only the paranoid are much more inclined to take advice from an unmet doctor existing in cyberspace (such as Dr. Mercola or Dr. Wakefield, or even Dr. Tuteur), over the personal relationship with a physician they trust.

      • Alice

        Okay, my curiosity has me here……….is your first name Bob? Honestly,because I have an analytical mind (it’s the literature craze and all the cyclical colloquialisms that never stop running through my brain).

        Anyhoo……..you made some valid points, but also stated some quite strongly (which made me think you were speaking to the audience and not just me) held opinions (you are, obviously, a physician?). Which is a good angle to take.

        I just grabbed one: BW said:
        However, that the physician is expert in these medical matters, over the patient, should not be open for debate to a rational person with an ounce of humility and perspective. It isn’t a matter of arrogance, it is a matter of role, just as a lawyer is expert in legal matters, and the teacher an expert in education over their student.
        [end quote]

        Alice: But if the physician is the expert which one do I listen to? I have two top physicians (believe me they are the best-of-the-best and one is an author) who have told me different plans for my daughter’s future. Which one is the real expert? In Dr. Jerome Groopman’s book (which is all about empowering patients, and sure that makes a doctor’s job harder, but if you are in the game to help others you should want the most objective, well-studied patients. I realize it’s much easier on a doctor’s nerves when the patient just sits and acclimates, but maybe doctors should be part professor, part doctor, and part just a mere mortal with empathy) he shares that even being famous meant he could get in with top experts. He went to six experts and got four different opinions. Will the real expert please stand up? No, say it isn’t so……..experts disagree? Where does that leave a patient? Having to study and filter and use the doctor’s for input, then making their own decisions and some will decide they don’t want the shots. And those people deserve the same respect that doctors want. You are a consultant for us with, hopefully, expertise, not a nice dictator.

        I wasn’t upset about what Amy was saying, but how she was saying it. You can’t have these “Physicians Protecting Physicians” type of clubs. They don’t serve you or the public well. Getting defensive only hurts your public image. What helps? Exactly what you prescribed. Humility? And as long as patients are paying you they can respect you, but to ask for humility from patients just because someone has an MD……..I don’t think so. Respect yes, and I am humble and kind to our doctors……….but let’s face it I am not a charity case.

        I hope and pray my doctors aren’t sitting there with some sort of imaginary hands over their ears and saying silently inside their head, “I can’t hear you!” It goes without saying the internet is treacherous, but give the patients some credit because the Information Revolution is here to stay and the patient’s Age of Innocence is over.

        I really did enjoy your post though (humbly speaking! :) ) Ack……..I really did. You made some valid points and stated them well. Gotta go and get my germ ridden, disease carrying child I let visit another family today………….ack! Sorry!

        • bw

          I apologize if I came off as preachy. I prefer… idealistic. I write these thoughts so strongly because idealism is fleeing the modern medical system, but it is the single greatest cure for what ails it. Additionally, I am a huge fan of patient education. In no way should a patient be a passive participant in their health care. As I said, I read literature just as you do. However, I recognize that the opinions and thoughts that I have about ‘East of Eden’ are without some necessary background that you, as a literature teacher, would surely have. So, through a discussion, I would learn from you and together reach an understanding, perhaps richer for the both of us through our discussion.

          It should be no different in the physician’s office. I understand the reasons that it is different, with an enourmous number of people needing to be seen, Medicare payment cuts, high overhead, etc ad nauseum. This is why we need an injection of idealism.

          The patient-physician relationship is a sacred one, wherein a person places the knowledge of their health fully and confidentially into the hands of someone that they hope to be more expert in medical matters than themselves, and seek advice. It is a fragile relationship and one that is based on a great deal of trust. This trust is so lacking in our current health-care “system” that it is nearly impossible to find someone who will simply take the time to listen and offer their medical opinion, and accept that it may be taken or refused.

          So you ask whose opinion to take if you have two physicians giving different opinions, which surely they will do for medicine is as much art as it is a science. I say that you listen to the one that you trust, becaues ultimately, you are the only one responsible for your own health.

          I speak of humility. I directed it towards patients in my last comment because that is where it seemed necessary for that comment. But there is a definite need for physician humility as well. In this role, there needs to be a humility and understanding that while western medicine has cures for all sorts of infectious and potentially fatal diseases, we need to remember that our profession began on the autopsy table. We are much better at preventing death and dismemberment than we are restoring life. Additionally, physicians often hide behind labels like “noncompliant”, or “crazy” as a form of pride, because surely the physician did not fail to spend adequate time to persuade the patient as to the wisdom of his advice or fail to fully seek out why that advice would be undesireable (see, I can be sarcastic too).

          It’s a broken system we live in, and we are all struggling to live within it. But we need to maintain a mutual respect that can only be engendered in a room, face to face with another person.

  • TNF

    Hi Alice,
    I happen to be getting my PhD in immunology. You’re clearly a passionate, inquisitive, and open-minded individual. You may find Lippincott’s Illustrated Review: Immunology to be a helpful in expanding your understanding of immunology. It’s targeted toward first year medical students so it sticks to the basics and has many helpful pictures. Some of your arguments make me suspect that you may have subconsciously built your foundation of understanding of immunology from an early exposure to someone who is opposed to immunizations. The lippincott’s review book (it took me about week, most medical students go through it in a couple of weeks) will give help you understand the basics (like what are the different type of antibodies, timing, and how they differ in function). Understanding the cellular basis, gene rearrangements, and activation processes will help you understand the role of probability and why some people were unlucky enough to have not responded to their vaccines.
    I wish you all the best and I sincerely hope that parents who do not immunize their own children avoid taking their children out of the country or consider restricting their interaction with children who are too young to be immunized.

    • Alice

      Thank you for your well-reasoned response. You read what I said and tried to help. I really do believe you did well! :) I homeschool, so it’s not a problem, except when my homeschool friends went to an innercity gym and got whooping cough from the immunized kids there.

      What I did was go a research scientist with a PhD and he sums it up well (he gives a lot of depositions and is good with words………short……..not sweet). He can sum up the immune system and how the shots hurt it in about five minutes. That’s the mark of someone who understands the topic. I was tempted to have him post here, but honestly, it’s best if he doesn’t………..trust me on that one!

  • Primary Care Internist

    immunologists primarily practice ALLERGY not immunology, as this is basically a research specialty rather than a practice specialty.

    You didn’t link to the Money magazine article. Here’s a link to a NY Times article backing up my point (my wife and mother are both pediatricians, and would happily do without vaccinating, from a financial point of view).

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9801E3D81530F937A15750C0A9619C8B63

    “Your patients often rely completely on you for information.” For those patients I generally advise vaccination when indicated; But I think you contradict yourself – many many patients have your mentality, and anti-vaccine stances and theories based in pseudoscience, Oprah, and Jenny McCarthy. I have no patience for them, they should just see someone who’s willing to ignore the science for the sake of keeping the peace. For better or worse, I cannot.

    • Alice

      http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9801E3D81530F937A15750C0A9619C8B63 [end]

      That article is interesting, and backs up both you and I. I was going to copy parts of it, but the article gave options for your mom and wife……..write out a prescription or stockpile it. To be quite honest, I am thrilled that some patients can’t give their young daughters Gardisil. The recent research about the boosters needed etc. aren’t encouraging, along with other side-effects.

      There is a Larry King transcript where they debate vaccines (most recently the H1N1……..imagine mankind survived that one? People lined up in hoards out of fear the media, doctors, hospitals planted (who I believe Newsweek said gave the shots to prevent lawsuits because it showed goodwill on their part………..gotta be thankful for risk management). It was a worthy debate where a famous pediatrician, and I think an ER doctor debated with great respect for each other (both agreed about the meds given at the hospitals if you thought you had the flu and said not to take it……I think it was Tamiflu?).

      I liked the link you sent, and am willing to read anything well-reasoned and researched (not research bought and paid for by interested parties). I don’t agree with all you have said, but the article was worth reading.

  • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

    “I teach literature (and sometimes debate) and I would not tell you that you have no skills to decipher an author’s intent”

    Okay, then perhaps you can relate to the following example.

    Suppose I told you that in writing Romeo and Juliet Shakespeare intended to show that everything works out great in the end and that’s why Shakespeare gave the play a happy ending. You’d almost certainly respond that I must not have read the play since if I read it I would know that it does not have a happy ending.

    Using your reasoning I could say to you that I didn’t need to read Romeo and Juliet to learn how it ends because I read Jenny McCarthy’s review of the play and she says that it has a happy ending. Would that be an acceptable response? Could I possibly interpret Romeo and Juliet if I never actually read it? No, right?

    Yet, that’s what you are telling me. You’ve never learned any immunology. You’ve simply read what vaccine rejectionists have written about immunology. And just like it would be unacceptable for me to claim to interpret Romeo and Juliet without having read it, it is unacceptable for you to claim to interpret immunology without having learned it.

    • Alice

      Could I possibly interpret Romeo and Juliet if I never actually read it? No, right?>>>>>>>>>>

      Hi! Well…….if I understood the play I should be able to help you understand it. And there are Cliff Notes, but a good teacher is better than that! I have this wonderful surgeon (who ordered special shots for his own children because he understood the harm the shots can do) who can explain things to me in a marvelously, understandable way. He knows his job so well that breaking down intricacies seems easy for him, and much appreciated by me. Years ago when our son had a brain tumor his neurologist loved to mystify us, but we had to see another neurologist who explained everything in such an understandable way it was like a light bulb went off. He could tell he was able to help me and told me to never, ever let a doctor off with that sort of crap where they can’t explain something in childlike terms. He felt the mark of a good doctor (or a good teacher) is one who can take a subject they have learned well and explain it to the layman. I would hope I could explain anything Shakespearean to a class and have them walk off hungry for more, with a new understanding of hyperbole, metaphors, and rhetoric. What good am I to anyone if I keep the mystery of such beauty to myself and can’t help others comprehend? If I just continue to pat myself on the back until my arm breaks all the while telling the class they are incapable of understanding? That would make me a horrible teacher. If a doctor understands the topic then tell us about it in a nutshell.

      Amy said: Yet, that’s what you are telling me. You’ve never learned any immunology. You’ve simply read what vaccine rejectionists have written about immunology. [end quote]

      Alice: This isn’t true. I immunized my first three children (and for the record I have homeschooled for 22 years and have three homeschool graduates). I used to debate for the vaccines, but hanging out with the crowd in academia is helpful to make you rethink decisions. I realized I was sold a bill of goods and I wasn’t too happy about it. I went back to our doctor and he was gracious enough to call me and we debated for probably an hour over this very topic. It was a wonderful debate and we parted ways with admiration, not accusations like we have seen here.

      I tend to think these debates can be very good when done right, but I realize I like debate (and like teaching it), but hate arguing.

      I appreciate your responding.

  • Alice

    Amy……in an effort to try to understand you I went to my PhD, toxicologist friend and he is against vaccines and said they hurt the immune system….and I won’t post the rest because it is not for public consumption…….because he has a wicked sense of humor and little patience for the inability of those who he feels use credentials instead of reason.

    Your reasoning isn’t reasonable even to those with more and better science credentials.

    • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

      Alice,

      You keep trying to dodge the point. So you went to your friend who is a toxicologist. That’s still getting the information second hand and you have no way to tell if your friend knows what he is talking about.

      If you don’t learn basic immunology, you have no way to judge how vaccines work or whether they are safe. I don’t know why you are arguing the point; it is incontrovertible.

      Learn some immunology. Otherwise you are unqualified to pass judgment on vaccination.

      • Alice

        Learn some immunology. Otherwise you are unqualified to pass judgment on vaccination.[end quote]

        Maybe I should never have become a mom either because I had no experience or knowledge about that. I will say I am so grateful for my own doctors who study beyond what textbooks say (one is a researcher who has won several awards. The guy is brilliant).

        Amy for the life of me I can’t understand why you can’t discuss a topic with belittling those who disagree. Surely if they teach such one-sided research in medical school, they can teach doctors at least how to do Research 101, and another class on how to comprehend what your patients are saying and teach them?

      • Alice

        Learn some immunology. Otherwise you are unqualified to pass judgment on vaccination. [end quote]

        Ummm…….are you the Queen of Immunology!? :) Why did you write an article that only your hand-selected people can respond to? Who is dodging the point? It feels like I have entered an Emperor’s Court, and am really grateful I am not going to get some cyber-guillotining!

        A note to BW…..I meant to share with you that, of course, you could analyse literature as well as me. Literature is a piece of magic in your pocket (well nowadays your book reader) and it’s simply superbly able to take us on travels and enlighten our minds in a unique way…….and what’s so wonderful about it is the ability to cross genders, hierarchies, and societal standards. And so it is with medicine………we just need a good teacher……..and that’s what is disappointing……….all of this “Nanny, nanny, boo, boo” stuff where a doctor proclaims themselves so adept, and others so inept. Yeah, I like fairy tales too, and I am thinking the Emperor needs a new coat! :)

  • Dr Synonymous

    I am impressed by the civility of the comments in this subject area. Congratulations to all for hanging in there several rounds. As a family physician who believes that informed parents are free to make decisions about the care of them and their family, I note that the deeper conversation with my patients doesn’t seem to start til the “fourth paragraph” in the discussion.
    We seek to have a mutually beneficial outcome to our engagement, including our need to relate to the “best” use of scarce, valuable resources (including them and me) and our obligations as citizens to our neighbors. This may relate to various levels of information seeking and resource use in an effort to honor humanity and each other. A lot of data and studies from the worlds literature, including Willie Shakespeare or Nelson, may be perused. In the context of a relationship-based specialty, there are few limits to the pursuit of “truthiness” (from Colin Copes-Kerr, MD, PhD) and various outcomes happen until all my patients eventually die. Hopefully, the passionate quest for the best process and information that merges with patient, physician, neighborhood and societal values should serve to minimize untimely or premature demise. The discussion of infections, immunity and immunizations is always important and usually passionate because we all care.

    The quest of the patient/ human in relationship to the human/ physician is often quite satisfying and sometimes a struggle, but hopefully always meaningful.

    Thank you all for caring. Peace

    • Alice

      The quest of the patient/ human in relationship to the human/ physician is often quite satisfying and sometimes a struggle, but hopefully always meaningful.

      Thank you all for caring. Peace
      [end quote]

      Now why don’t you post under your real name? What an impressively, thoughtful post. Doctors like this give medicine a good name. And whether we like it or not, doctors have one heck of a PR job to do on this front.

      I just received a nice e-mail from my daughter’s doctor (answering e-mail late on Saturday is impressive to me). I had given him permission to e-mail me the results from the biopsy on Wednesday. It came back positive for cancer, and I just e-mailed her surgeon (another impressively, caring doctor). I am so fortunate to have doctors who “enjoy” the e-mails I send to them (believe me I know I am a cheeky bugger at times, but forgive me if anything I say comes across as…….cross…..it isn’t meant to). But, I doubt, they would post under their real names either. Thank you!

  • Primary Care Internist

    I would say a PhD toxicologist is not qualified to comment on vaccinations and the immune system, or certainly MUCH MUCH less qualified than a physician (ANY physician, not just an immunologist).

    My father, a PhD organic chemist with dozens of published research articles and grant money,etc. And he would never dream of commenting on vaccination. That would be using credentials instead of reason.

    • Alice

      I would say a PhD toxicologist is not qualified to comment on vaccinations and the immune system, or certainly MUCH MUCH less qualified than a physician (ANY physician, not just an immunologist). [end quote]

      He went to medical school.

      • DO Student Doc

        Alice,

        You don’t get PhD in Toxicology from medical school. You might get one at the university associated with a medical school but that’s entirely different. For example, one might go to the University of Washington to get a PhD in Toxicology but that does not mean that you can claim you went to the University of Washington School of Medicine.

        • Alice

          My friend has a PhD, went to medical school works as a Coroner, but he doesn’t know the immune system? What a small club that is? That means doctors shouldn’t be giving out shots they simply don’t understand a thing about.

          • DO Student Doc

            If he has a PhD and went to medical school then he has an MD, PhD or a DO, PhD. It is in getting the MD or the DO that he learned immunology, not in the PhD in toxicology.

            If you are going to base your arguments on the credentials of your friends, you need to make sure that you cite the credentials that actually matter to the debate.

            In terms of the “logic/fallacy” education you suggested physicians need, the logical fallacy you are currently favoring is the “Appeal to Authority” or “Argument from Authority.” You keep quoting your friends, who all claim to be authorities on various subjects and yet all of the physicians posting on this blog are themselves authorities on the subject. Indeed, you are the one who lacks understanding on the subject and are at the mercy of what your friends tell you. I say this not to belittle you but to point out the fact that you are using much more fallacious reasoning than you are accusing others of using.

            At the end of the day, the numbers are not in favor of the rejectionists arguments. When vaccines are not given, kids get sick, period. Autism rates are not increasing in any objective fashion. Indeed, the criteria for autism have greatly expanded in the past 20 years. Moreover, much of the suppose increase in numbers come from special ed registrations from state boards of education. And yet, many of these states, such as CA do not require an actual medical diagnosis of autism or any learning disability for the child to be enrolled. The more kids they get enrolled the more money they get for special programs. Hmmm

            And then you get the “but, vaccines MIGHT cause A or B or etc so we shouldn’t give them just in case” argument, which only belies the fact that many folks simply do not wish to be reasonable but are grasping at straws to maintain their position.

            Prior to the now thoroughly discredited research that fallaciously linked autism to thimersol, there was nary a peep against vaccination except for small groups that were against any sort of government involvement in their lives. Now that autism has been falsely dragged into the debate, they have enlisted lots of other folks in their cause. You take away this “research” and “evidence” and the debate doesn’t exist. In other words, if one truly is interested in evidence and science, when this “research” goes away, so should the debate. The fact that it doesn’t says volumes about the respect folks have for science and evidence.

  • Alice

    quote: But I think you contradict yourself – many many patients have your mentality, and anti-vaccine stances and theories based in pseudoscience, Oprah, and Jenny McCarthy. I have no patience for them, they should just see someone who’s willing to ignore the science for the sake of keeping the peace. For better or worse, I cannot.
    [end quote]

    I don’t agree with you, but thank you for your honesty. I believe you really do have a conviction………and even in disagreement the dialogue is good.

    I definitely agree your patients would be served better if you tell them you aren’t willing to understand their viewpoint. If you are that convinced and honest right upfront it’s completely understandable (I was given a pediatrician by the hospital after baby number 4 and at the 4 week check-up I said I didn’t want any shots. She literally went out-of-her-mind and threw us out of the office screaming. My older daughter and I still laugh at the scene with patients wondering what I could have possibly did to make the doctor go berserk. It was like a skit from SNL).

    From what I have seen the “rejectionists” here (and as I shared I have friends who are doctors, and are highly educated, write research papers, and they agree with me, so it’s not about intelligence, or conspiracy theories, but protecting children from potential harm to their bodies). It’s unfair to label us as unstudied, emotionalists. You do your patients a disservice when you shut down, but surely it is your prerogative. You know it’s the group of “rejectionists” who can take credit for safer shots, not the doctors who defended them so passionately years ago.

    The Money Magazine article doesn’t have a link, but it’s findable. It was a pediatrician who wrote that pediatricians are one of the few doctors who make the bulk of their money off of “well visits” and shots. So, your wife and mom are operating at a loss on the shots? I am going to talk to my own pediatrician about this because that may make me one of her quite profitable patients if I don’t bow down and get the shots. Thankfully, she agrees with my decision, but gives shots to those who want them. She is amazing! She studied and didn’t immunize her own children. What a conspiracy theorist, Oprah loving doctor she must be! What’s the world coming to? :)

    I will read the link you sent, because even while pigeon-holed I want the truth……..knowing the NY Times doesn’t always have it, but I am willing to learn.

    Thank you for responding!

  • http://theanxiousparent.com Dr. Gonzalez

    Alice,

    What if anything would change your mind about vaccines? (Research showing vaccines work to prevent illness? Research that shows the side-effects from shots pose less risk than contracting the illness they are designed to prevent? A death of your own child from a preventible illness? Seeing polio with your own eyes in children in present day America? Or nothing short of Andrew Wakefield saying shots are safe?) What would it take? What piece of the puzzle would you personally need to change your stance?

    If it is safety or efficacy data you need, and if that data was presented to you, would you believe it, or would it be dismissed as part of some greater cover-up or ignorance of those on the other side of the argument?

    What would it take?

    • Alice

      What if anything would change your mind about vaccines? (Research showing vaccines work to prevent illness? Research that shows the side-effects from shots pose less risk than contracting the illness they are designed to prevent? A death of your own child from a preventible illness? Seeing polio with your own eyes in children in present day America? Or nothing short of Andrew Wakefield saying shots are safe?) What would it take? What piece of the puzzle would you personally need to change your stance? [end quote]

      Hi! I think these are excellent questions. I have never read Andrew Wakefield’s comments, although, I have seen him demonized lately. With the internet I am never sure who deserves skewering and who doesn’t. My youngest is now 13 years old, so I don’t fear the shots the way I used to when they were young and at an age I was apprehensive. Although, I find this conversation a bit similar to Dr. Jerome Groopman’s wonderful article in The New Yorker about a month ago. He discussed plastics and how hard it is to decipher all this information (it’s being found in umbilical cords of babies, which is alarming, just as immunizations should be alarming. My goal is that moms understand the risks with complete disclosure, not to make sure no one vaccinates. That was my personal decision. In truth, I understand the decision parents make to vaccinate. And remember there was thimerosal in the vaccines when my children were younger………..well it’s still there in a lot of them, but many parents don’t know that. I think it’s being replaced with another preservative that doesn’t quite settle my fears).

      I can go shot-by-shot (just the major ones) and tell you why I don’t think it’s worth it. Actually, the only shot I considered was the measles one, but the shot itself was so scary I didn’t get it. I knew what to watch out for and don’t have the paranoia about doctors (remember I have a very good pediatrician who was named one of the top in our state, and a good relationship with her). And you can tell me what facts are wrong in my explanation. You may be helping another reader if you do so.

      Okay, tell me where I am wrong here. Let’s look at the DPT shot. I am not fearful of diphtheria…..yes, pertussis is scary, but only in a baby under nine months old. And no way would I give a baby with an immature immune system that shot (I do understand following the Asian example and waiting until children are two years old to vaccinate). Okay, that leaves tetanus and there is a lot of misinformation about this. If you think your child has contracted tetanus you can go to the ER and get the shot right away.

      Polio lives in the live virus, which is why the Salk dead virus is a better choice. Why would I protect my children from polio or rubella when they are wiped out of the US? That doesn’t make any sense. Unless they were going to travel or I was hiring some illegal immigrants.

      As far as I know my baby wasn’t doing drugs or sleeping around so I skipped the Hepatitis shot. I am not worried about H1N1, and we aren’t getting the flu vaccines, or chicken pox (my kids contracted that naturally and have lifelong immunity).

      Now as I shared measles is the one that grabbed me. My daughter is a nurse and I think she received the measles vaccine in her twenties. We are not worried about mumps either.

      I know about the new book with pictures of parents of children who they say died from preventable diseases (very, very sad stories……crushingly painful), but there is also a memorial to the vaccine victims (and there are more than we realize because some are classified as SIDS deaths).

      What do we think when we see a stage full of parents on TV all with autistic children (two were famous) and they all agreed that no matter what research says their children became ill after the MMR vaccine? No explanation from science as of yet, except Dr. Oz (whose wife doesn’t like vaccines either) said he thinks there is a predisposition in some children and the vaccine causes problems in them. Can’t they do a test to see who is predestined, or immunologically predisposed. We have come so far with advances in genomics it’s a bit mystifying why they can’t do a test like this.

      What is wrong with my reasoning? I realize the conversation is deeper than this, but I thought this was a good place to start.

      • DO Student Doc

        Since you have asked for a point-by-point rebuttal, I will attempt one here.

        I’ve dealt with the fallacy of polio being “wiped out” in another post (it’s soil-borne and is still very much available to infect unvaccinated individuals). Diphtheria and pertussis are both potentially deadly diseases. The only reason you’re not “worried” about them is because most people are vaccinated against them and, as a result, have become relatively rare. In parts of the world where they are more common, people die from them quite regularly.

        Hepatitis is transmissible by much more than IV drugs and sex, most notably fecal material, which is why all health care and child care workers are required to have the vaccination.

        I’ve also dealt with the death toll from measles in areas that aren’t being vaccinated. The UK has also had major outbreaks in the last couple of years, with a number of deaths as a result. The same thing will begin to happen in America if the trends against vaccination continue. That’s not fear-mongering, that’s scientific fact.

        As a woman, you can choose to not worry about mumps all you want but as a post-pubescent man, I will choose to worry about mumps very much. Orchitis is not a pretty thing!! (I point you to M*A*S*H episode 186, from season 8, for a word-picture, if you like.) As for Chicken Pox, while it might be relatively harmless for kids, it can be devastating for adults and older people. And shingles (which happens mostly in folks who had mild cases when younger) can be debilitating.

        Alice wrote:

        “What do we think when we see a stage full of parents on TV all with autistic children (two were famous) and they all agreed that no matter what research says their children became ill after the MMR vaccine? ”

        So if a bunch of people get together and agree that something is true, that makes it true, especially of some of them are famous? Are you serious? By this reasoning, people have actually been abducted by aliens and experimented on because a bunch of people agree that this has happened to them despite the lack of evidence.

        And yet one could very easily get a much larger group of people (many of them famous as well) whose kids were saved from preventable diseases singing the praises of vaccines, with lots of research supporting their claim. Who does it make the most logical and reasonable sense to believe?

        • DVM

          >>Hepatitis is transmissible by much more than IV drugs and sex, most notably fecal material, which is why all health care and child care workers are required to have the vaccination.>>

          Hepatitis A can be transmitted via fecal material.

          Hepatitis B & C are primarily transmitted via blood and semen. Neither of these can be transmitted via fecal material unless the feces is contaminated with blood or other body fluids.

          I’ve been vaccinated for Hepatitis B because I worked in a research laboratory with human blood products prior to attending veterinary school. I haven’t been vaccinated for Hepatitis A because my risk for exposure is fairly low. Currently, there is no Hepatitis C vaccine available.

  • Alice

    Ugh! I did it again. Scratch the last part of that letter about MS. My kids came in to play a joke on me and someone hit the keyboard and away the post went. Sorry about the mess!

    • http://medicallymindnumbing.blogspot.com Shawn

      Hi Alice,

      I am super interested in the vaccine debate. I’ve been debating a guy on my blog about the anti-vaccine movement, but mostly based against the irrational fears and conspiracy side (The guy I debate thinks vaccines are just something the Rockafellers – who somehow control all of medical science right now – came out with to make tons of money and that diabetes and cancer are curable by diet alone).

      It’s incredible to me that you have spoken to many experts on the topic, but still feel that vaccines are not worth the risk or for the greater good of the population. That last sentence sounds kinda condescending or negative, but was not meant that way.

      My questions for you are – I am unable to find the Money Magazine article to which you keep referring to. The articles that I can find in the NY Times, CNN Money, and the Journal of Pediatrics all say that Peds docs loose money or at best break even giving vaccines. Also, it sounds like you go to an academic hospital or university of some type for your care. Have you considered that maybe academic pediatricians make money slightly differently than their private practice colleges?

      http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/08/news/economy/health_care_vaccinations/index.htm

      http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/6/1319

      How do vaccines deteriorate your immune system? I’m a medical student and I am pretty fresh on my immunology and phys. I am curious, what is it about vaccines that blunt your immune system – according to your PhD friends? Is it the preservatives, the hapten, or maybe the specific carrier protein (usually tetanus toxin)?

      Do you see yourself as somewhat of a rarity? I would guess not since the people you speak to are very educated in the sciences and some have came to the same conclusion as you. But in my short time in the vaccine debate, I have found many anti-vaccine people to be very emotional and their theories tend to have many elements of pure scare tactic and conspiracy theory. I just want to say it’s refreshing to see someone with a level head and common sense on the anti-vaccine side.

      I would greatly appreciate a response. Thanks Alice!
      ~Shawn

  • Dr. Gonzalez

    Alice,
    Here is a partial response to your concerns. Maybe others can fill in the gaps.

    1) Thimerosal–Millions and millions of dollars have been spent looking into this. No study as of yet has shown any association between shots containing thimerosal and autism or other neurodevelopmental abnormalities. (Google thimerosal and autism, click on the scientific studies link, and you can see page after page of scientific studies showing no relationship. You will not find one peer reviewed study showing a link.) Despite this, thimerosal has been removed from all shots in the US except for the multidose vials of influenza. Other shots are being manufactured in single-dose vials or single-dose syringes, so there is not need for a preservative. Despite the removal of thimerosal the diagnosis of autism has continued to rise.

    Many of the other concerns you have are addressed here:
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/123/1/e164
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/125/6/1134

  • DVM

    Several years ago, one of my colleagues euthanized a rabid pet animal (unfortunately, it had tangled with a rabid skunk). This animal belonged to a family that did not believe in vaccination: for themselves, their children, or their pets.

    Every member of the family had close contact with the animal and its saliva. The entire family was subsequently treated for rabies exposure – RIG and a full series of rabies vaccinations. I have no idea how their physician persuaded them to do so. Perhaps he simply screened some videos of people dying of rabies – fear is a potent motivator. I don’t know.

    This episode could have been avoided had they simply vaccinated their pets for rabies, or even if they’d contacted their veterinarian after the pet’s skunk exposure. At this date they still haven’t vaccinated their other pets, however, other than the dogs (that’s required by law in their town, and animal control became involved after the rabies incident).

    Vaccination doubters can’t be educated. It’s belief, based on a weird mythology of biology rather than actual facts. If outbreaks of preventable diseases kill enough unvaccinated children of vaccine reject-ors, some (though not all) may prefer the lesser evil of vaccination. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help those kids who truly can’t be vaccinated for actual medical reasons.

    • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

      Vaccination doubters can’t be educated. It’s belief, based on a weird mythology of biology rather than actual facts. If outbreaks of preventable diseases kill enough unvaccinated children of vaccine reject-ors, some (though not all) may prefer the lesser evil of vaccination. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help those kids who truly can’t be vaccinated for actual medical reasons [end quote]

      My pets are vaccinated, but these wide sweeping generalizations are above your level of education (which I actually thought would include some logic/fallacy courses, and the ability to reason, and patiently address patient’s valid concerns).

      Why don’t you go line-by-line over what I have said and prove my objections wrong, instead of doctors coming here and just sliding right into a good fit of the same irresponsible public stereotypes they fight? How about some objectivity and using your education to educate instead of stomping/stamping/labeling? If doctors have all these years of education, then educate us, and stop the flippancy where no one learns a thing except how much they don’t like being pigeon-holed. At least let the impasse be one where you show you know what you are talking about, and can answer valid concerns. At least show the concern you claim you have for society, and patiently address concerns. For every dead child you proclaim as your reason, the other side will proclaim a child dead from a shot. It’s like saying a child was killed on a particular street, so let’s shut down the street forever. Some logic, good reason, and patience is much more helpful…….and facts…..and allowing parents the respect to make up their own mind without being bullied with partial truths.

      • DVM

        >>Why don’t you go line-by-line over what I have said and prove my objections wrong>>

        Because I’m not a physician, and I don’t personally care what you do re: vaccinating your children… as long as they stay far, far away from my family, friends, colleagues and clients.

        Your poor choices put me and my loved ones at risk, every time your unvaccinated children go out in public and mingle with the general population.

        >>How about some objectivity and using your education to educate instead of stomping/stamping/labeling?>>

        Unlike others in this discussion, I don’t care to attempt to educate those who can’t be educated. I second the recommendation of the graduate student who recommended the immunology text, which I own and have read (and consult, not infrequently).

        I regularly discuss risk:benefit of vaccines with my clients. My philosophy boils down to: if the disease is zoonotic, I’ll strongly recommend vaccination. If the disease is contagious and the pet encounters other animals, I’ll recommend vaccination. If the disease is acquired from the environment and the client chooses not to vaccinate, well, that’s the client’s choice.

        Some of my patients never see other members of their species, ever, so that cuts down on concerns about not vaccinating those patients for contagious diseases. Not so for humans. I pity my physician counterparts.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Hi! Thank you for responding. I appreciate the dialogue.

    Hmm…………this is a bit bothersome to me because it is truthful, but a partial truth. Yes, they aren’t putting thimerosal in the shots (thank you “rejectionists” for that!), but unfortunately, some doctors stockpiled to save money and kids are still receiving shots with this preservative. I agree research hasn’t backed up the thimerosal and autism link (but, obviously, something was wrong with thimerosal that it’s now gone….bravo to the “rejectionists” again! :) , but something is causing autism in huge numbers, and for all we know the shots could cause learning disabilities, and indeed, some overdiagnosis on doctor’s part is happening. Some moms will risk a disease before a learning disability, because in truth, the risks of getting the disease are small.

    I am busy setting up surgery, etc. but I will read the links you sent. I just want to end by saying that autism, learning disabilities, allergies, etc. are very real, and something is causing it. What? We can’t just blame the environment for everything.

    I think doctors will help more patients if they sit down and start out with a, “Shots are not without risks, but overall, I feel they are of great gain.” Than to label those who disagree, or tell them not to let the door hit them in the butt as they leave.
    It’s an important conversation, and with the vast amounts of data out there a doctor who can answer just the simple questions and concerns I have asked (but haven’t really been addressed in simple language, despite my pleas……which is so curious…….how in the world do they communicate with patients with sincere questions when they can’t address one mom here) is the type of doctor I seek out.

    The bottomline is patients want the truth. They can deal with that, and the most basic, bottomline is that shots have some risks. My doctors admit to that, and I love my doctors! And because I love them I listen to them intently.

  • DVM

    >>some doctors stockpiled to save money and kids are still receiving shots with this preservative.>>

    This is ridiculous.

    First of all, every vial of vaccine I receive from my (veterinary) suppliers has an expiration date. It is malpractice to use expired vaccine. Why the heck would I stockpile?

    Second, the vaccine companies I use will cheerfully swap out recently expired or short-dated vaccine for new, at no cost to me. There is no financial incentive to use expired vaccine.

    Perhaps the situation differs in the human market, but I don’t think so.

  • http://medicallymindnumbing.blogspot.com Shawn

    Talking about scare tactics and conspiracy theories on the anti-vaccine side:

    http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2065

  • Alice

    Hi! When I get home I will find the link about doctors who are using expired vaccines (I tape Good Morning America and I believe their pro immunization. so I think that is where I saw it)

    Shawn…I have the Money Magazine article on my storage drive. I can share parts here, or you can write to me at: arobert6@juno.com. the article is about money made on the shots and the cost to children through harm from the shots

  • DVM

    >>I will find the link about doctors who are using expired vaccines (I tape Good Morning America and I believe their pro immunization. so I think that is where I saw it)>>

    Why don’t you do that, because Googling “Good Morning America doctors use expired vaccine” produced a link for an April 2010 show on DISCARDING unused, expired H1N1 vaccine.

    I think you are confused. Good grief, I’d never use expired vaccine on a patient, and I can’t imagine a physician doing so, either. My malpractice insurance won’t cover me for harm resulting from an act of intentional negligence, and using expired vaccine certainly qualifies.

    • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

      I think you are confused. Good grief, I’d never use expired vaccine on a patient, and I can’t imagine a physician doing so, either. My malpractice insurance won’t cover me for harm resulting from an act of intentional negligence, and using expired vaccine certainly qualifies [end quote]

      What a relief! Now we all know that not all doctors are ethical, so all you can do is proclaim your own innocence.
      I am pretty sure it was Good Morning America (but I was on my Droid and have a major Droid Dysfunction on Kevin’s site because I can’t blow it up to view it, and mess up on the keyboard even worse than this one at home).

      They have a new pediatrician on the show, who is pro-immunization, but he threw in a liner about some thimerosal supposingly parents believe it to be completely gone (although, I think it was in the swine flu vaccine) from children’s shots, but some doctors were still using it (that means kids were at risk……and please don’t throw out the autism + thimerosal not being linked. That’s off the table…….I have said it several times already that science can’t prove what parents know).

      I am really sorry your mind is so closed that you can’t disprove, yet label the other side. If you are frustrated, I guess you should be frustrated with your own inability to defend your own stance. I know I am willing.

      • DVM

        >>I am pretty sure it was Good Morning America

        Given that your memory of WHERE you saw this is rather hazy, I am not inclined to trust you to reliably relate WHAT the content actually was.

        >>some thimerosal supposingly parents believe it to be completely gone (although, I think it was in the swine flu vaccine) from children’s shots, but some doctors were still using it>>

        As the H1N1 vaccine is relatively new, most of it is probably not yet expired, let alone “stockpiled to save money”. Read over what you wrote previously and decide what, exactly, you’re arguing.

        >>I am really sorry your mind is so closed that you can’t disprove, yet label the other side. If you are frustrated, I guess you should be frustrated with your own inability to defend your own stance. I know I am willing.>>

        I don’t engage in arguments over religion, either. When it comes to faith of any kind, logic and facts are useless in persuading those whose beliefs differ violently from one’s own.

        • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

          As the H1N1 vaccine is relatively new, most of it is probably not yet expired, let alone “stockpiled to save money”. Read over what you wrote previously and decide what, exactly, you’re arguing. [end quote]

          I am saying exactly what I said at first that there was a segment on TV promoting vaccines with a small warning that, unfortunately, some doctors are still using expired lots with thimerosal in it. Doctors can jump up and down and say they wouldn’t do such a thing, but they do a lot of unethical things. You may not be an adulterer, or prescribe pain killers, or falsely bill an insurer, but your cohorts do. You are suspectible to the same sins of your “species” that we are. You can rubberstamp the “rejectionists” all you want, but others can rubberstamp doctors based on small percentage who do unethical things and can’t defend their own stance.

          • DVM

            >>I am saying exactly what I said at first that there was a segment on TV>>

            I’m still waiting for the exact source. As I don’t watch any television myself, I can be of no help in jogging your memory here.

            >>promoting vaccines with a small warning that, unfortunately, some doctors are still using expired lots with thimerosal in it.>>

            A. Expired vaccine
            B. Vaccine containing thimerosal
            or, C. Expired vaccine containing thimerosal?

            I suspect it’s “B”, but I await the fruits of your research.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Some of my patients never see other members of their species, ever, so that cuts down on
    concerns about not vaccinating those patients for contagious diseases. Not so for
    humans. I pity my physician counterparts.
    [end quote]

    Well……….golly……..and a woof and meow……..and maybe a big nay…….:) You say you won’t educate, but you sure do rant well. I can’t figure out if I am supposed to answer or not. If I give you my paw can I answer?

    More later………it’s feeding time.

    • DVM

      >>You say you won’t educate

      You aren’t my client. You aren’t paying for access to my many years of education and experience, and as I mentioned previously, I’m not a physician.

      >>but you sure do rant well.

      Thank you.

      • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

        You say you won’t educate}

        [You aren’t my client. You aren’t paying for access to my many years of education and experience, and as I mentioned previously, I’m not a physician.[end quote]

        Alice: But why would you need to be a physician to discuss this matter? And where did the physicians go? I admire your fortitude……but we aren’t building the atom bomb here. I think playing kill the messenger is unbecoming of those who should be able to explain this clearly.

        {>>but you sure do rant well.

        Thank you. [end quote]

        Alice: You are welcome! At least we aren’t rabid! :)

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    I think you are confused. Good grief, I’d never use expired vaccine on a patient, and I can’t imagine a physician doing so, either. My malpractice insurance won’t cover me for harm resulting from an act of intentional negligence, and using expired vaccine certainly qualifies. [end quote]

    Doctors have patients sign away their rights before vaccinating. Many parents don’t even know what the waiver says, and that’s ashame. Why a waiver when they are saving mankind from me and my disease-carrying children (which if you are correct…. we need to haul most adults in for some mandatory vaccines and boosters, lest we annihilate mankind with all these hidden diseases in our bodies)? Maybe your animal patients have more rights than a child?

    • DVM

      >>we need to haul most adults in for some mandatory vaccines and boosters, lest we annihilate mankind with all these hidden diseases in our bodies>>

      I don’t really care if you aren’t current on your tetanus or hepatitis B vaccinations. (BTW, ever seen anyone die of tetanus? I have, even though the patient wasn’t human. It’s not pretty.) I don’t even care if you forego the seasonal flu and H1N1 vaccines, as long as you have the sense to stay home if you develop flu-like symptoms.

      Polio? My mother had polio as a child, in the 1940s. She has PPS now.

      Rubella? I’m vaccinated, and I’m not pregnant. My friends who are pregnant thank the unvaccinated in advance for the damage to their developing fetuses.

      Chicken pox? I had this as a child and survived. No biggie, eh? Well, one of my little playmates wasn’t so lucky: she died of complications of chicken pox, at the age of four.

      Do you want me to go on? I’m not a physician, so my familiarity with human vaccination protocols is limited.

      If you or your children are not vaccinated for certain highly contagious diseases, I don’t want you near me or any of my loved ones. Quite frankly, I’d almost rather handle a rabies suspect. At least I’d be aware of the risks.

      >>Maybe your animal patients have more rights than a child?

      Animals are legally property. Children are not, at least not in the U.S..

      The children in my life have rights, too. Because no vaccine is 100% effective, they deserve to be protected from obvious threats to their health… like the unvaccinated.

      • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

        Alice:>>we need to haul most adults in for some mandatory vaccines and boosters, lest we annihilate mankind with all these hidden diseases in our bodies>>

        DMV: I don’t really care if you aren’t current on your tetanus or hepatitis B vaccinations. (BTW, ever seen anyone die of tetanus? I have, even though the patient wasn’t human. It’s not pretty.) I don’t even care if you forego the seasonal flu and H1N1 vaccines, as long as you have the sense to stay home if you develop flu-like symptoms.[end quote]

        Tetanus doesn’t scare me. You can go to the ER within 24 hours and get the shot. It’s extremely rare to die from Tetanus. I think less than one person, per state annually, and they are usually elderly? I would stay home if sick. I am responsible.

        DMV: Polio? My mother had polio as a child, in the 1940s. She has PPS now. [end quote]

        Alice: I am very sorry about this. Sadly, we will never eradicate illnesses. My daughter is sick with cancer, so it’s not that I lack empathy about illnesses. My father also had polio.

        DMV: Rubella? I’m vaccinated, and I’m not pregnant. My friends who are pregnant thank the unvaccinated in advance for the damage to their developing fetuses. [end quote]

        Alice: They can have their blood tested to see if they need the immunization. On the msnbc.com site there is an article that shares rubella is wiped out in the US. I put it into Google and quickly found one article about it, so it’s easily found:
        ***
        US Eliminates Rubella, a Major Source of Birth Defects
        The United States has eliminated the rubella virus, or German measles, a major source of birth defects. The rest of the Western hemisphere is making good progress against the disease, but that global eradication is not in sight. **************************

        DMV: Chicken pox? I had this as a child and survived. No biggie, eh? Well, one of my little playmates wasn’t so lucky: she died of complications of chicken pox, at the age of four.[end quote]

        Alice: That is a real tragedy. Nowadays doctors know who is susceptible to a death from chicken pox, and if treated early they can usually help the child. Early detection is a key in many cases. But remember the vaccine is not fool-proof. I think maybe 80%??

        DMV: Do you want me to go on? I’m not a physician, so my familiarity with human vaccination protocols is limited. [end quote]

        Alice: Certainly, continue on………being a physician doesn’t give you secret information because we now have so much information available we can make much more informed decisions. Physicians aren’t magicians with magic formulas, or magic treatments. The Information Revolution helps both doctors and patients. My doctor is not the insecure type who thinks his patients are incompetent and he encourages study, second opinions, and any input. He is the protype of doctor who actually believes his patients can be informed and have an opinion (he vaccinated by special ordering shots w/o thimerosal to his young children). He has the ability to think and wants patients who can think because he doesn’t mind a challenge, and knows he doesn’t have all the answers. That’s why he wins big awards. It’s why I love Dr. Jerome Groopman so much. He thinks patients are smart and savvy, and that a doctor should be able to explain any procedure in a manner the patient can understand.

        Acting like you hold some Masters of the Universe degree, or like you have some mystical powers to interpret immunology means you don’t have a grip on the topic yourself. Any professor worth his salt can explain a topic to anyone……..at least the basics.

        DMV: If you or your children are not vaccinated for certain highly contagious diseases, I don’t want you near me or any of my loved ones. Quite frankly, I’d almost rather handle a rabies suspect. At least I’d be aware of the risks.

        Alice: Well………if everything you have said about the shots is true then you have just responded with a fallacy. I thought we had “herd immunity”? I know that was a point-of-contention in this debate. And how do you know the safer shots you or your children received actually had a dose that was effective in it? Have you had a blood test to test your families immunity? Maybe I should be worried about getting near you?

        Alice:
        >>Maybe your animal patients have more rights than a child?

        DMV: Animals are legally property. Children are not, at least not in the U.S..

        The children in my life have rights, too. Because no vaccine is 100% effective, they deserve to be protected from obvious threats to their health… like the unvaccinated.
        [end quote]

        You brought up something important. Actually, the state lets me raise my kids, and it’s why I keep repeating about “parental rights” which are vital. And you are right no vaccine is 100% effective, so again maybe I am risk when I am around your family. It’s not so easily summed up as we would like this to be………..because even mass inoculation will have tragedies.

        • DVM

          >>Tetanus doesn’t scare me. You can go to the ER within 24 hours and get the shot.>>

          Within 24 hours of what?

          >>Sadly, we will never eradicate illnesses.

          Ever heard of smallpox?

          >>They can have their blood tested to see if they need the immunization.>>

          Okay, when a woman who hopes to become pregnant is tested for rubella, what is this blood test for, specifically? Oh, and how was rubella “eradicated” in the U.S.?

          BTW, nowadays cases of rubella are just a plane ride away. See the OP’s original discussion of the unvaccinated child who returned to the U.S. incubating measles.

          >>That is a real tragedy. Nowadays doctors know who is susceptible to a death from chicken pox, and if treated early they can usually help the child. Early detection is a key in many cases.>>

          Are you serious?

          In addition to that immunology text, I suggest you have a good read of a basic microbiology text.

          >>But remember the vaccine is not fool-proof. I think maybe 80%??>>

          I have no idea, as I’m not a physician. Your point?

          >>if everything you have said about the shots is true then you have just responded with a fallacy. I thought we had “herd immunity”?>>

          If you truly understand the concept of herd immunity, you will re-read what you just wrote.

          Herd immunity is meant to protect those who cannot be vaccinated, like those undergoing chemotherapy. Herd immunity also protects those who are actually vaccine “failures”, because no vaccine is effective in every person, or animal.

          To reiterate: I don’t want your unvaccinated children anywhere near my loved ones.

          >>And how do you know the safer shots you or your children received actually had a dose that was effective in it?>>

          The question is not whether the vaccine itself contained an effective dose. Do you really believe physicians knowingly administer ineffective (?expired?) vaccine to people?

          >>Have you had a blood test to test your families immunity?>>

          Actually, for many diseases this isn’t a very reliable method of testing true, in vivo “immunity”.

    • DO Student Doc

      Alice,

      I think that you are confused a bit. If a doctor injects a patient with an expired vaccine (or any other expired pharmaceutical chemical) or if a pharmacist gives a client an expired substance to fill a prescription, they have pretty much just ended their careers. Their insurance will not cover the liability suit they will be fighting, their medical/pharmaceutical license will be pulled and they will likely go to jail.

      I think the thimersol you are referring to is what is found in multi-use vials of vaccine, which is still sometimes used (but not as often).

      • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

        I think that you are confused a bit. If a doctor injects a patient with an expired vaccine (or any other expired pharmaceutical chemical) or if a pharmacist gives a client an expired substance to fill a prescription, they have pretty much just ended their careers. [end quote]

        Nope, not confused. You have at least tried to answer my questions, but you and I both know medical research is going to disagree over your assessment on polio and rubella. We can play dueling websites on this. Sometimes it just boils down to believing what we want to believe. I went to the Good Morning America site and put in “expired + thimerosal” and over a thousand hits came up. I need time to narrow it down.

        You and I both know the waivers protect the doctor’s from lawsuits and a bit of the money patient’s pay for the shots goes into a fund to help pay patients who are injured. I told you yesterday about my little cousin who died from the MMR shot.

        In truth, some of what you shared (although, I do believe you are to be commended for taking the time to share why you believe in the shots, which is far better than the other physicians who posted with the attitude of……..just get the shots………lest your child die……….knowing that’s a long shot and if they knew what to look for and would educate the parents a bit better getting the disease early often leads to good results).

        And I didn’t say my friend was an MD……….I said he is Coroner with a PhD who attended medical school (four years, decided he didn’t want an MD after his name. He knows as much as any doctor………..again you and I both know there are doctors who disagree with your assumptions about the shots. I go to see my doctor on Thursday to schedule my daughter’s cancer surgery and if I remember I am going to ask him about this [time is a factor]). I wish I could use their names, but at this point I don’t think they would appreciate it. Actually, I wish they would just post. Then again I don’t think it behooves anyone to play the kill the messenger game. I don’t like The New York Times, but went and read their article and thought it was interesting. I still time to read the two links sent earlier, knowing I will disagree, but still desiring to hear the other side.

        I am going back to the GMA site tonight to try to find that video. I need a Searchologist! I found the Money Mag article and sent it to Shawn. It’s not recent, but interesting.

        Would you really let your children take a shot with thimerosal? Aren’t you at least glad they are cleaning up the shots?

        • DO Student Doc

          I’m beginning to feel like I’m tossing my “pearls before swine” but…

          “You and I both know the waivers protect the doctor’s from lawsuits and a bit of the money patient’s pay for the shots goes into a fund to help pay patients who are injured.”

          If this were true then malpractice lawyers would not exist. All doctors have patients sign wavers from here to there and yet doctors still get sued. And the HRSA (the fund you speak of) in no way precludes a malpractice suit if a doctor or pharmacist were so foolish as to inject a patient with an expired vaccine. The doctor has still violated the law, FDA regs, AMA regs, a pile of ethical codes, etc and they will cease to practice medicine.

          “…you and I both know medical research is going to disagree over your assessment on polio…”

          It is a simple fact of biology that polio is a soil-borne virus. The notion of “medical research” changing this is like “marine research” suddenly finding that whales aren’t marine mammals. In fact, it’s the soil and water people who are doing lots of work on poliovirus these days, as a quick Scholar Google search will reveal. Furthermore, although lots of research articles speak of “eradication” of polio, they are speaking of the disease, not the virus. All of these “eradication” programs rely heavily on adequate coverage with the vaccine. No one, anywhere, in talking about not vaccinating for polio due to its being “eradicated” because they know that, unlike Smallpox, which needs living critters for a reservoir, polio uses the soil for a reservoir, leading to a ready-supply of virus if vulnerable individuals are present.

          “And I didn’t say my friend was an MD……….I said he is Coroner with a PhD who attended medical school (four years, decided he didn’t want an MD after his name. He knows as much as any doctor…”

          Ahem, that’s what we call a med school dropout. Completing four years of med school doesn’t make you a doctor. To say that “he knows as much as any doctor” only shows your ignorance of medical education. ALL working doctors complete AT LEAST 3 years of post-graduate education (sometimes as much as 10-12 years) before they are able to practice independently.

          You can find any number of people with the word “Doctor” in front of their names who will tell you any number of things. The trick is figuring out which of these folks are reliable and actually know what they’re talking about. Having spent much of my adult life in academia, I can tell you that there are plenty of academics out there who claim to have all sorts of expertise and yet they have no experience and don’t necessarily know what they’re talking about. If your friend is telling you that he “knows as much as any doctor” then he is either deluded or simply trying to impress you. He’s not working as a doctor, he’s working as a coroner. These are very different professions. While an MD or a DO may indeed work as a coroner, one need not have one of these degrees to do so. In fact, a PhD in tox is pretty decent training for being a coroner but inadequate training for being a physician.

          • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

            DO Student Doc June 21, 2010 at 11:57 pm
            I’m beginning to feel like I’m tossing my “pearls before swine” but…[end quote]

            So you and Amy are proclaiming yourself Imperial Immunologists and discredit anyone who dare try to share what is basic common sense. Do you have a first name? I like to discuss the Bible with people on a first name basis…………oh yes…….I am not a Theologian? Are you? Aren’t you quoting the Bible now?

            So being in Mensa doesn’t qualify someone to battle you and her Royal Henous …um Highness? :)

            Anyone can file a malpractice suit, but we both know a huge percentage of malpractice suits go nowhere (yes, I know a malpractice lawyer who lost her job because insurance companies aren’t paying out…….even when you get a settlement….this is all covered on the malpractice board on this very blog……a doctor was negligent to our child so I discussed it). In the case of my cousin who died from the MMR shot the parents did sue (I didn’t back that suit), but the waiver tossed the case.

            Why are you steering around the waiver……..but I give you credit……..at least you tried. The vast majority of doctors here won’t even talk about it. It’s so innocuous why not toss it and not make parents sign it? Your malpractice insurance has it covered, right?

            We both know that the vast majority of doctors do unethical stuff (even if it’s basic insurance claims). Every doctor makes mistakes…….it’s a fact. A doctor who gives an expired shot isn’t going to tell the patient. You presume doctors are some type of Super Hero with special powers from having an MD that the public simply can’t get a grip on. I think many doctors would prefer imbeciles for patients to make their lives easier. They want herd mentality, and they don’t like it when they don’t get it.

            Okay, tell me how many soil borne cases of polio have cropped up and killed someone in the US the last few years?

            And for goodness sakes someone answer my question. Why aren’t doctors discussing the pro’s and con’s with their patients. Oh golly, I forgot…….you need to be a lawyer to understand the waiver, an immunologist to understand the shot, and a doctor with an agenda to save the world from my kids (how altruistic), to even begin to understand the lofty kingdom some doctors desire. I’ll have the tea and crumpets served soon (says Alice with a curtsy)! ha!

          • DVM

            >>It is a simple fact of biology that polio is a soil-borne virus…Furthermore, although lots of research articles speak of “eradication” of polio, they are speaking of the disease, not the virus. All of these “eradication” programs rely heavily on adequate coverage with the vaccine. No one, anywhere, in talking about not vaccinating for polio due to its being “eradicated” because they know that, unlike Smallpox, which needs living critters for a reservoir, polio uses the soil for a reservoir, leading to a ready-supply of virus if vulnerable individuals are present.>>

            Well, not quite: polio virus actually isn’t very durable, and doesn’t survive for long in the environment. The virus requires a (small) number of susceptible humans in order to survive, and is thus a target for eventual eradication via vaccination programs (see an excellent essay on this subject in Atul Gawande’s collection of essays, “Better”). We’re not there yet, because breakthrough outbreaks continue to occur in pockets of unvaccinated and thus susceptible people. Many of these susceptible people live in Africa or Asia in impoverished war zones. Some live in the suburban U.S. and have been fortunate not to encounter anyone shedding polio virus… thus far.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Author: DO Student Doc
    Comment:
    Since you have asked for a point-by-point rebuttal, I will attempt one here.

    I’ve dealt with the fallacy of polio being “wiped out” in another post (it’s
    soil-borne and is still very much available to infect unvaccinated individuals).
    Diphtheria and pertussis are both potentially deadly diseases. The only reason you’re not “worried” about them is because most people are vaccinated against them and, as a result, have become relatively rare. In parts of the world where they are more common, people die from them quite regularly.[end quote]

    Alice: I believe there are nine deaths per year from pertussis, and it’s treatable with antibiotics. There are no deaths from polio. I think 2 deaths per year from rubella. Less than 5 deaths per year from diphtheria.

    quote:

    Hepatitis is transmissible by much more than IV drugs and sex, most notably fecal material, which is why all health care and child care workers are required to have the vaccination. [end quote]

    Alice: So if the healthcare workers are immunized why is my baby at risk? Contamination from unsanitary workers?

    quote:
    I’ve also dealt with the death toll from measles in areas that aren’t being vaccinated. The UK has also had major outbreaks in the last couple of years, with a number of deaths as a result. The same thing will begin to happen in America if the trends against vaccination continue. That’s not fear-mongering, that’s scientific fact.

    Alice: The CDC says:

    Since April 2008, two measles-related deaths have been reported in Europe, both in children ineligible to receive MMR vaccine because of congenital immunologic compromise (4,8)

    Alice: It is said healthy children with a good diet rarely die from measles. It’s the immunodeficient that are at high risk. Most doctors in the US have never personally seen the measles in a patient. I think there are less than 200 cases a year in the US? Admittedly, measles is the one shot I considered. I had mumps and it doesn’t worry me (I can’t remember, but it seems to me there was maybe one death per year from mumps?). I wrote earlier about rubella.

    quote: As a woman, you can choose to not worry about mumps all you want but as a post-pubescent man, I will choose to worry about mumps very much. Orchitis is not a pretty thing!! (I point you to M*A*S*H episode 186, from season 8, for a word-picture, if you like.) As for Chicken Pox, while it might be relatively harmless for kids, it can be devastating for adults and older people. And shingles (which happens mostly in folks who had mild cases when younger) can be debilitating. [end quote]

    Alice: Why are you worried about mumps? And you asked about my sources? You are directing me to M*A*S*H? That’s an old show in a foreign country. I prefer reading and tape shows like GMA or Dr. Oz, so I can breeze through them quickly. How about you sum that up for me, and tell me what in that episode is pertinent? Isn’t there less than 100 deaths per year from chicken pox?

    Alice wrote:

    “What do we think when we see a stage full of parents on TV all with autistic
    children (two were famous) and they all agreed that no matter what research says their children became ill after the MMR vaccine? ” [end]

    quote: if a bunch of people get together and agree that something is true, that makes it true, especially of some of them are famous? Are you serious? By this reasoning, people have actually been abducted by aliens and experimented on because a bunch of people agree that this has happened to them despite the lack of evidence. [end quote]

    Alice: LOL I agree with your analogy about aliens…….yeah one of my kids said the bogey man lives in our basement, so I haven’t went down there in years! :) Teasing! I listen to moms (when it’s reasonable)……..just as BW said experience is important (he was defending doctor’s positions). Yes, I am serious because I don’t trust many of the researchers……..not even the government completely (but to a degree I do. I am not a conspiracy theorist…….now about 9/11…..um……teasing!).

    quote: And yet one could very easily get a much larger group of people (many of them famous as well) whose kids were saved from preventable diseases singing the praises of vaccines, with lots of research supporting their claim. Who does it make the most logical and reasonable sense to believe? [end quote]

    Alice: Umm………this isn’t provable without widescale blood tests to see who is really immune and who isn’t. This would be a good research project for someone who wants to get to the bottom of this and release some real results. Remember I said the American Academy of Pediatrics shared that 80% of the kids who get whooping cough were immunized?

    Comment:
    If he has a PhD and went to medical school then he has an MD, PhD or a DO, PhD. It is in getting the MD or the DO that he learned immunology, not in the PhD in toxicology. [end quote]

    Alice: I answered this, but it’s a bit silly. He knows immunology very well. He did a dissertation with a load of research on this stuff. Let’s get away from the kill the messenger. It’s like saying we can’t discuss the law unless we are a lawyer or a judge. It means everything we have just discussed is moot. Now that’s a ridiculous assumption. I mean to give a child a shot and tell the mom, “Now don’t ask any questions because you can’t possibly understand immunology? Oh you are an immunologist and you don’t want the shots?” :) For any doctor to take a stance like that is non-sense (at least for the former sentence). My surgeon draws pictures, and breaks everything down so we have an understanding of what he is going to do. That’s the mark of a good doctor, not the ………trust me I understand the immune system and you couldn’t possibly. It just sounds too much like mystic medicine to me! A good doctor can share the basics of any of the mysteries of medicine (and good authors can do the same).

    quote: If you are going to base your arguments on the credentials of your friends, you need to make sure that you cite the credentials that actually matter to the debate. [end quote]

    Alice: Pleeeeaaassse! This is too much! This is too monarchyish! Want me to ask them for their resumes? You medical types are in the Medieval system of Medicine!

    quote: In terms of the “logic/fallacy” education you suggested physicians need, the logical fallacy you are currently favoring is the “Appeal to Authority” or
    “Argument from Authority.” You keep quoting your friends, who all claim to be authorities on various subjects and yet all of the physicians posting on this blog are themselves authorities on the subject. Indeed, you are the one who lacks understanding on the subject and are at the mercy of what your friends tell you. I say this not to belittle you but to point out the fact that you are using much more fallacious reasoning than you are accusing others of using. [end quote]

    Alice: Just because they agree with you doesn’t make them right…….or make you objective, or logical. It’s make them educated people patting each other on the back. You guys came out swinging and tried to put everyone who disagrees on the defensive and some used intimidation (not you… but look at the earlier posts from doctors who praised the article without really reading it thoroughly. Oh they were clapping so hard they didn’t decipher the information or attitude with any discretion). They pulled the old…….I am the Queen or King of Information…….you would have thought they were King Arthur with some magical ability to pull the sword from the stone while the rest of us mere uneducated peasants can’t get a seat at King Arthur’s Round Table (and all it’s privileges).

    quote: At the end of the day, the numbers are not in favor of the rejectionists arguments. When vaccines are not given, kids get sick, period. Autism rates are not increasing in any objective fashion. Indeed, the criteria for autism have greatly expanded in the past 20 years. Moreover, much of the suppose increase in numbers come from special ed registrations from state boards of education. And yet, many of these states, such as CA do not require an actual medical diagnosis of autism or any learning disability for the child to be enrolled. The more kids they get enrolled the more money they get for special programs. Hmmm[end quote]

    Alice: Hmm……is right……..and you are right it’s a money maker and lawsuit preventer because a doctor would rather label a child than not label a child. But that still doesn’t account for the autism epidemic which directly correlates with the more vaccines being given. If you look at this logically… if you believe the diseases are horrible, then a little bit of the disease is at least bad on some level, so a shot that may be a “bad lot” is really bad for a child. Russian Roulette in some cases even if they are rare they are real (really real for those with a child who dies like my cousin did at age 2).

    Special Ed is a money maker and also a product of the American family breakdown and the teachers claim many of them are just undisciplined kids. But, again, it just doesn’t explain why we are almost at the point of one in one-hundred kids being diagnosed with autism.

    What if more kids are damaged per year than the actual disease would produce? Surely, doctors can at least admit there is a risk…….no matter how small……..there is a risk.

    quote: And then you get the “but, vaccines MIGHT cause A or B or etc so we shouldn’t give them just in case” argument, which only belies the fact that many folks simply do not wish to be reasonable but are grasping at straws to maintain their position. [end quote]

    Alice: Until it’s YOUR child that gets injured. It’s always that way. People don’t get involved until it hits home, and that’s why there is a vaccine fund……it’s to help the injured kids. And it’s why a waiver is signed before a doctor gives you the shot. I know you belittled firsthand accounts, but my friend took her daughter in for her kindergarten shot. The girl fell off the examination table in a convulsion, and 911 was called. The girl forgot how to read and it took almost 8 years before she was able to read a book. The shot has probably caused her a lifetime of learning disabilities. What do we say to her? She had signed the waiver, and her bright daughter will suffer a lifetime of struggling with homework. College looks like a nightmare at this point.

    quote: Prior to the now thoroughly discredited research that fallaciously linked autism to thimersol, there was nary a peep against vaccination except for small groups that were against any sort of government involvement in their lives. Now that autism has been falsely dragged into the debate, they have enlisted lots of other folks in their cause. You take away this “research” and “evidence” and the debate doesn’t exist. In other words, if one truly is interested in evidence and science, when this “research” goes away, so should the debate. The fact that it doesn’t says volumes about the respect folks have for science and evidence. [end quote]

    Alice: I know I would want to know who financed the research before I read it. Look at what happened with the global warming when their e-mails were hacked. But people still believe what they want to.

    That said……my argument all along has been that doctors need to tell the pro’s and con’s and inform their patients and knock-off the “I am Lord” over the patients. Let the parents decide and you be the information bank and consultant. That’s what they are paid for, not to be some type of “Lord Muck of the Immunization Set”. Tell them you are completely pro-immunization, but for goodness sakes tell them why they need to sign that waiver. When I left the doctor’s office last week and my daughter had her biopsy the doctor told me what we were risking, etc. It was very difficult to hear that, but it was truthful and he was right to tell me. He is top-of-his-game and doesn’t think he is a Supreme Being over the patient who couldn’t possibly understand. That’s just downright ridiculous to act like you have information that you can’t possibly impart to a parent unless they are an immunologist. I would not go back to a doctor who doesn’t understand a topic well enough to explain it to me.

    I think I answered all of your responses. If I didn’t, you have my e-mail address. I am too tired to go to GMA now. See what you’ve done! :) I really will try to read those links and get that GMA link, which I know several hope I can’t find. I have a lot on my mind with the neck dissection, consultation, etc. Anyhoo………..thanks for the dialogue.

    • bw

      “I listen to moms (when it’s reasonable)……..just as BW said experience is important (he was defending doctor’s positions). Yes, I am serious because I don’t trust many of the researchers……..not even the government completely (but to a degree I do. I am not a conspiracy theorist…….now about 9/11…..um……teasing!).”

      I think this short comment in this entire discussion sums up the entirity of this discussion. This isn’t a question of science. It isn’t a question of immunology. It is all about trust.

      It’s pretty remarkeable when you stop and think about medical knowledge and how much trust it takes to read a medical journal and actually incorporate the results of a study into practice. Or to read a textbook and trust that the book is in fact true. Or as DO Student Doc wrote that it is a fact of biology that polio lives in the soil. I have not personally experimented and discovered this fact, nor has he, but we both trust that this is so because we trust the integrity of the individual scientist, and, even more so, we trust the integrity of the scientific community and that someone double checked and conurred that polio does, in fact, live in the soil.

      Outside of knowledge, we in medicine have experience that the medicine we give works and that, if it works, the rationale for giving it is accurate. This is not a logical necessesity, but it is the best that we can do, and it gives us more of a reason to trust all the knowledge that we learned in medical school.

      Now, what if you are a person who is now exposed to all this information unleashed upon the world through the internet. Without any experience with the disease itself to back up the information, it is simply a quest to find knowledge that lines up with the experiences that a person has had (and a person can find any information on the internet to support their view), and then to trust that the knowledge gained is accurate.

      The problem is that the current health care system is failing its patients, and these people are losing trust in the system. Because we are part of that system, they are losing trust in us as well. There are so many conflicts of interest, greed, unnecessary tests, stories of drug side effects, bankrupties from medical costs, and plain, grouchy cynical people who seem more concerned with their paycheck than helping people, that some of these people can’t help but lose trust.

      So the question should not be “how can we get these people to see that we are right?”, but “how can we show these people that we are worthy of their trust?”

      • DVM

        >>It’s pretty remarkeable when you stop and think about medical knowledge and how much trust it takes to read a medical journal and actually incorporate the results of a study into practice.>>

        Well, personally, I don’t trust anything published in a veterinary (or medical) journal until I’ve read the article critically.

        >>it is a fact of biology that polio lives in the soil.

        That’s not exactly true: it’s excreted in human feces, and survives in sewage for no longer than a month or two. The polio virus does not “live” in soil. That’s why polio is a reasonable target for eradication.

        >>it is simply a quest to find knowledge that lines up with the experiences that a person has had (and a person can find any information on the internet to support their view)>>

        Well, yes. That’s obvious here.

      • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

        BW said: I think this short comment in this entire discussion sums up the entirety of this discussion. This isn’t a question of science. It isn’t a question of immunology. It is all about trust. [end quote]

        Alice thinks BW should teach literature too! You analyzed the thread quite well. Indeed, it is about trust on both ends of the spectrum.

        BW: It’s pretty remarkable when you stop and think about medical knowledge and how much trust it takes to read a medical journal and actually incorporate the results of a study into practice. Or to read a textbook and trust that the book is in fact true. Or as DO Student Doc wrote that it is a fact of biology that polio lives in the soil. I have not personally experimented and discovered this fact, nor has he, but we both trust that this is so because we trust the integrity of the individual scientist, and, even more so, we trust the integrity of the scientific community and that someone double checked and concurred that polio does, in fact, live in the soil.

        Alice: We all know the famous quote from W.C. Fields when caught reading the bible…he said he was looking for loopholes. I think we saw a bit of that here. Just as you shared…sometimes we bring our “experiences” with us (and what mom is completely objective?) and then search for research to fit our own preferences. In truth, I think some take a public altruistic-humanitarian approach, but we are just plain fearful (and one can point to the deaths from lack of shots, while one will point to the deaths from the shots).

        BW said: Outside of knowledge, we in medicine have experience that the medicine we give works and that, if it works, the rationale for giving it is accurate. This is not a logical nonnecessity, but it is the best that we can do, and it gives us more of a reason to trust all the knowledge that we learned in medical school.

        Alice: That just makes so much sense, except humans just don’t always respond the same way. It makes medicine much harder when we don’t fulfill the dispensed recipe approach. In Dr. Groopman’s book (that he knew would not be a doctor’s favorite) he appealed to doctors to take what they have learned……the old hoof beat analogy about not looking for zebras, and said to look for the zebras, to constantly reassess and question yourself. Don’t do what my friend shared he saw here with the dogmatic stuff. Be open to listening, and realizing that research can be faulty, research can help a segment, but rarely all of mankind will respond in the same manner to any particular treatment. I really do think that medicine can help most, but the sad result will be decisions that mean the death of a small segment. They try to minimize this effect, but it’s a sad fact. Even research can kill people in an effort to save many. I understand that viewpoint, so I question..I search…but that bottomline…fear… keeps entering the equation…and you want moms to be apprehensive about anything that could hurt their child. So your effort to build trust will mend more fences on the emotional battlefield doctors do battle, than the old Puritanical mandatory type of…obey or else mindset. A mutual respect, as you suggest, will be very fruitful for what can almost be a type of sacred position a doctor takes in a person’s life.

        BW: The problem is that the current health care system is failing its patients, and these people are losing trust in the system. Because we are part of that system, they are losing trust in us as well. There are so many conflicts of interest, greed, unnecessary tests, stories of drug side effects, bankruptcies from medical costs, and plain, grouchy cynical people who seem more concerned with their paycheck than helping people, that some of these people can’t help but lose trust.

        Alice: How absolutely refreshing to hear such honesty. My doctor says he does it because he really believes he is helping people……..and he is. But he complains sometimes to. I think as much as patients grumble……..there is something they find intriguing about doctors. The perception of privilege remains, and I think when doctors behave themselves the majority of their patients do respect them. We love our doctor so much I would tell him that we would find excuses to visit with him…….now I feel as though I am eating those words and should watch my flippancy……I am going to tell him I have changed my mind…….I don’t want to visit him anymore…because it represents pain.. (both emotional and heartfelt. And it’s this very thing I wrote to another doctor this weekend about to thank him for a lovely e-mail to our daughter. I said that just as a true education is of the heart and mind…so it is with medicine). To encourage doctors …..our other doctor wrote a nice apology note after the biopsy came back. These gestures of a personal e-mail mean so much to a patient.

        BW: So the question should not be “how can we get these people to see that we are right?”, but “how can we show these people that we are worthy of their trust?”

        Alice: What a prolificly impactive statement. You summed it up well!

  • DVM

    >>just get the shots………lest your child die

    Actually, I think most people are far more concerned about their own children, not yours.

  • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

    Alice has demonstrated, in the clearest and most emphatic way possible, the claims that start my post:

    “Vaccine rejectionism is based on a profound lack of knowledge about immunology, statistics and science. Virtually every single empirical claim of vaccine rejectionism is factually false, but parents who lack even the most basic understanding of immunology are often incapable of evaluating those empirical claims.

    Indeed, those parents most likely to proclaim themselves “educated” on the topic are generally the most ignorant.”

    Every empirical claim that Alice made is factually false, but since (by her own admission) she lacks a basic understanding of immunology, statistic and science, she is incapable of understanding her errors. And like most vaccine rejectionists, she proclaims herself to be “educated” on the topic, but is, in reality, woefully ignorant.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Rushing to swim team. DMV asked some questions. As a vet you know the answer to your question about tetanus. You have 24 hours from contact of a bite or soil to get the shot. Most people aren’t up on their tetanus shots and as I shared last night the deaths are maybe about 43 a year (mostly the elderly).

    I said most illnesses are eradicated and you asked about smallpox. Smallpox still lives in labs and it was covered in Newsweek or Time as a weapon terrorists could use against us. Guess you better go and get a smallpox vaccination, you know those terrorists are sneaky buggers who like to share diseases on airplanes.

    Ha! You want me to give credit to vaccines for eradication of rubella…….but you don’t want to say the shots have risks? I think the difference is I want the truth on the table, so I can admit that safe vaccines are effective (but remember also some of these diseases were on the decline before the shots became available), but at this point as I have shared repeatedly I want informed parents, not shots in the dark. Lay out the risks and benefits on a chart and let the parents see it. I don’t understand why there isn’t full disclosure (doctors would rather use fear and bullying on those with questions, yet some doctors are understanding and think an informed patient may mean less shots, but at least the parent will have heard their side).

    DMV said rubella is just a plane ride away. Well like TB it could very well be at a restaurant in your neighborhood from an illegal immigrant being hired. It’s not likely, but it’s there. My husband had TB as a child in the UK. He contracted it through his father who was sick his whole life afterwards.

    Yes, I was serious about chicken pox. If parents are educated the earlier you get to an illness the better your chance of survival.

    quote: In addition to that immunology text, I suggest you have a good read of a basic
    microbiology text. [end quote]

    But I am too stupid to understand it………..I am not an MD. Oh to be so uneducated is such a cruel condemnation on such a poor damsel. I will throw myself at the feet of the expertise of those on this board with credentials, and publicly proclaim my own vanity in even trying to debate with such nobility. Accept my apologies! ha!

    Gotta run!

    • DVM

      >>As a vet you know the answer to your question about tetanus.>>

      Yes, I do. I asked you.

      >>You have 24 hours from contact of a bite or soil to get the shot.>>

      So, when one of your kids got a splinter while playing, you rushed said child to the pediatrician for a tetanus shot, right?

      >>Smallpox still lives in labs…Guess you better go and get a smallpox vaccination>>

      This is hilarious, because I’m fairly certain (even though I’m not a physician) that no one is currently recommending routine smallpox vaccination for anyone other than the small population of people who study smallpox virus in laboratory settings.

      Smallpox is the only human disease that has been completely eradicated in human populations.

      >>You want me to give credit to vaccines for eradication of rubella>>

      Do you have another explanation?

      >>rubella is just a plane ride away

      Do you disagree?

      >>like TB it could very well be at a restaurant in your neighborhood from an illegal immigrant being hired>>

      There’s no vaccine for tuberculosis. Your point?

      >>Yes, I was serious about chicken pox. If parents are educated the earlier you get to an illness the better your chance of survival.>>

      So, knowing nothing about my childhood playmate’s parents or her illness, you’re saying she might have survived complications of chicken pox had her parents been educated and sought medical attention more quickly? I’ll have to mention that to them the next time I see them around town.

      >>But I am too stupid to understand it………..I am not an MD.>>

      I studied basic microbiology as an undergraduate. Likewise basic immunology.

  • DVM

    >>A doctor who gives an expired shot isn’t going to tell the patient.>>

    Again, I’m a veterinarian, not a physician, but my records reflect my vaccine purchasing and usage history. If I stockpiled vaccine which then expired, purchased no new vaccine, but continued to vaccinate patients, it wouldn’t be too difficult to determine that I’d been using expired vaccine. My medical records track by serial number which lot of vaccine I use in which patient… probably not too different from what physicians are required to do.

    >>that still doesn’t account for the autism epidemic which directly correlates with the more vaccines being given>>

    Sigh. All together, now: “Correlation does not imply causation”.

    I’m not going to attempt to explain regression, dependent and independent variables. As I’m not a statistician, I’m also not going to hazard an explanation of other data analysis techniques that might be of some use here.

    Suffice it to say: vaccination rates aren’t the sole event in this population that could result in more diagnosed cases of autism.

    • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

      Alice said:>>that still doesn’t account for the autism epidemic which directly correlates with the more vaccines being given>>

      DMV: Sigh. All together, now: “Correlation does not imply causation”.

      Alice: I like that comeback! So you can sing as well as help animals. That’s quite good. You have a back up occupation! :) Well………..I didn’t say it does. I asked what in the world, besides the environment is causing this, and pointed out the coincidence. But the theories about the correlation are not helping complete the picture. It arouses our curiosity about medical science, and it only helps the conspiracy theorists try to fill in the gaps. And ya’ know……it’s not paranoia if it’s true! ha!

      DMV: I’m not going to attempt to explain regression, dependent and independent variables. As I’m not a statistician, I’m also not going to hazard an explanation of other data analysis techniques that might be of some use here. [end quote]

      Alice: You don’t need to. That’s what was missing with all the immunological bologna. I didn’t ask them to give me the recipe about how shots are made, or the intricacies of how they are absorbed by the body. I kept saying over-and-over-and-over ad nauseam that doctors cannot keep patients in the dark while we are in the Information Revolution. It’s wrong. Sure doctors want their patients immunized, but it’s just bad medicine to use your own agenda and purposefully keep a patient in the dark.

      I shared this privately tonight with a reader of the board, so I will share it here. I told you I teach literature (it’s a passion, so it’s easy to teach). After teaching The Giver and 1984 you see how cults are formed. So forgive my stance that I think before a shot is placed in anyone’s arm that person, or the guardian should know exactly what diseases are in the shot, it’s purpose, and any risks. We don’t want good foot soldiers who obey without questioning. It’s wrong for any doctor to consider his own agenda over-and-above a parent’s direct rights to at least understand what is going into their child’s body. Even our foods have labels that parents have the choice to read…….why not the shots? The typical parent is given a waiver that only helps the doctor, and manufacturers, not the parent. To keep stomping your feet and saying someone has no degree in the science of immunology, so therefore, they can’t play on your side of the playground is so completely bullheaded and inefficient that my doctor calls it “foolishness”. Doctors have valuable information, but they should not be trying to trump parents over the shots. And to be honest, some doctors just don’t have valuable information because they lack the ability to teach their patients.

      It’s completely irresponsible to give a shot you can’t explain in the simplest of terms to the parent why you feel so strongly about them……..tell them the pros and cons. You would not want your own child being taught something detrimental to your own convictions without at least knowing it was being taught, and giving you the foresight to at least prepare the child. A doctor’s agenda is secondary to the parents. Unless the child is being harmed in any way by the parent, and some parents really and truly believe the shot will harm their child……..so it’s their legal right to say no. For those who want mandatory shots…….that may be coming as we keep giving up more rights to get government money or programs. Shots are something that should sell itself if they are as good as doctors say. If parents are saying they don’t want them shutting down communication with them is not helpful to your cause. I really do believe many doctors just can’t explain it all, and lack the patience and ability to actually sum it up quickly. And it goes without saying the anti-crowd has some loud mouths who are guilty of wearing the same blinders and lacking in education as some of the doctors display. The extremists on either end of this spectrum aren’t serving such an important topic well.

      And if you really want to read a great book about a doctor playing God and the consequences…..read Frankenstein. Sometimes just because man has the ability to do something, doesn’t always mean he should. But that’s for another day.

      DMV: Suffice it to say: vaccination rates aren’t the sole event in this population that could result in more diagnosed cases of autism.

      Alice: Well………see……..you kept the dialogue up and we agree! Hallelujah!

      • DVM

        >>To keep stomping your feet and saying someone has no degree in the science of immunology>>

        No one in this discussion has a “degree” in immunology.

        I did take an immunology class as an undergraduate, in addition to another in veterinary school. I probably would have learned almost as much by simply reading the book. Someone else recommended a basic immunology text to you. I agreed with him that this might be helpful in furthering your understanding of this topic, as you have an obvious interest.

        I’ll say it again: purchase or borrow a recently published basic immunology text and read it.

        >>some parents really and truly believe the shot will harm their child……..so it’s their legal right to say no>>

        Sure.

        >>For those who want mandatory shots…….that may be coming as we keep giving up more rights to get government money or programs.>>

        Yes, and I think this is an excellent approach. Government money and programs are privileges, not rights.

        I don’t want your unvaccinated children anywhere near my loved ones.

        >>it goes without saying the anti-crowd has some loud mouths who are guilty of wearing the same blinders and lacking in education as some of the doctors display.>>

        Ironic, as Dr. Tuteur already commented.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    I am on my Droid’ which means this will look like a two year old wrote this instead of a ten year old…..but I wanted to encourage the posters who actually communicate because I posted my email address yesterday and I have received some introspective feedback (encouraging, but some do not agree with me…which is perfectly fine because my goal is to educate and cause people to think…to get to the truth….disclosure).

    Keep talking….your comments are being read and even though I feel a bit lonely in this conversation it would not be a conversation if it was just me.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    I did an internet search on expired vaccines and it seems animals do get them (one story was recent from May 2010 in Wisconsin). The CDC has information on this about inventory rotation, and basically begging doctors to try to return the old vials, or ones that have been improperly stored, but it doesn’t say anything about malpractice. Basically, it means an animal or person could be given an old, expired vaccine and not be truly vaccinate, although the paperwork would say they are. I found this in a few minutes, because I need to get back for a swimmeet.
    From The Memphis News:

    FAST FACTS

    A February 2008 Audit of the Shelby County Health Department’s Immunization Clinic discovers expired vaccines still on the shelve. Six expired doses of Hepatitis B vaccination were administered between December 2007 and January 2008
    The doses might not harm the recipient, but they might not prevent a person from contracting the disease.
    Memphis 8/11/2008) These days “Hepatitis B” vaccinations are required of every child starting school and most people who travel internationally. But our investigation reveals, some of those shots from the Shelby County Health Department might not be as effective as you’d think. The only thing worse than being stuck with a shot is being stuck with one that is expired.

  • DVM

    >>I did an internet search on expired vaccines and it seems animals do get them (one story was recent from May 2010 in Wisconsin).>>

    Yes, at vaccination clinics held at a local humane society.

    In many states, rabies vaccine must be administered by a licensed veterinarian. Not so in the state of Wisconsin, where rabies vaccine may be purchased and administered by a veterinary technician.

    >>The doses might not harm the recipient, but they might not prevent a person from contracting the disease.>>

    Correct, and correct.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Alice previously said:
    >>The doses might not harm the recipient, but they might not prevent a person from
    contracting the disease.>>

    DMV said: Correct, and correct.
    [end quote]

    Alice: Then whoever brought up malpractice from expired lots being used would be wrong? No harm done to the patient, unless the person got the disease and and was injured. And because we know so few people die from these diseases a doctor has little to worry about. Malpractice is no hit-and-run these days, even when you can prove intent and injury. Most doctors will never deal with this type problem. I will answer your previous post as soon as I can think (don’t hold your breath).

    • DVM

      >>Then whoever brought up malpractice from expired lots being used would be wrong?>>

      Incorrect.

      >>No harm done to the patient, unless the person got the disease and and was injured. And because we know so few people die from these diseases a doctor has little to worry about.>>

      I’m not sure what to say.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    DVM: Yes, and I think this is an excellent approach. Government money and programs are
    privileges, not rights.

    I don’t want your unvaccinated children anywhere near my loved ones. [end quote]

    Alice: First of all sorry for getting the initials you post with switched around. I think it’s a learning disability from the shots!

    Anyhoo………I was thinking you and Amy could just do a round up (with the government’s help, of course) and put all the unvaccinated in camps. You can throw in some communists and Chinese too. Hey, you may get some research money for it. And be sure to order some government paid for books on immunology for the “species” you are throwing in there. And, thankfully, there will be some doctors in that compound for the kids who will be injured by the shots.

    You two may know immunology, but you simply don’t understand the real debate because you are so focused on people receiving the shot you lack true research abilities.

    You sure are paranoid that I am going to hunt you down and fellowship with your family (you have mentioned it repeatedly). Are you sure your kids names aren’t Hansel and Gretel? You know I have a house made of candy and I eat children when it’s a full moon.

    • DVM

      >>First of all sorry for getting the initials you post with switched around.>>

      Apology accepted.

      DVM = Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, BTW. Those are not my initials.

      >>put all the unvaccinated in camps.

      Oh, I don’t think that’s necessary.

      >>You can throw in some communists and Chinese too.

      Why? Neither of these groups is currently bothering me.

      >>be sure to order some government paid for books on immunology>>

      No need. The government pays for library books. It’s a good thought, though; I’m sure you could borrow a current edition of an immunology text via interlibrary loan.

      >>you simply don’t understand the real debate

      What is the real debate?

      >>because you are so focused on people receiving the shot>>

      Though I can’t speak for Dr. Tuteur, I’ve repeatedly said I don’t care if you and your children are vaccinated or not. I do care if people who are not vaccinated for contagious diseases come in contact with me or my loved ones, though.

      >>you lack true research abilities.

      How so? What should I be researching?

      >>You sure are paranoid that I am going to hunt you down and fellowship with your family (you have mentioned it repeatedly).>>

      I’m quite sure I’ve never mentioned fellowship. Casual contact is more than risky enough, IMO.

      >>Are you sure your kids names aren’t Hansel and Gretel? You know I have a house made of candy and I eat children when it’s a full moon.>>

      I think you’ve muddled your fairy tales.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    >>You can throw in some communists and Chinese too.

    Why? Neither of these groups is currently bothering me.[end quote]
    Alice: Well………..that’s another good comeback, but seriously….there is a larger point here. We can’t have each person’s fetishes contained when there is no real health or security threat. Now come on……..admit it……..you would like the a few radicals lock away from mankind? :)

    >>be sure to order some government paid for books on immunology>>

    No need. The government pays for library books. It’s a good thought, though; I’m sure you could borrow a current edition of an immunology text via interlibrary loan. [end quote]

    Alice: We don’t need that stinkin’ textbook in this debate. :) We have the experts right here, who keep refusing to sum it up in simple terms. We can stick to the basics and still have a meritous debate, but not when people keep labeling themselves “Oh Wise One” about immunology (Shawn seemed to be reasonable. I hope he reads this and gives us the short take. He would be doing society a favor to help such ignoramuses as me). My take is about personal rights and knowledge about the risks.

    >>you simply don’t understand the real debate

    What is the real debate? [end quote]

    Alice: See above and my post from last night, and the night before, and the night before……

    >>because you are so focused on people receiving the shot>>

    Though I can’t speak for Dr. Tuteur, I’ve repeatedly said I don’t care if you and your children are vaccinated or not. I do care if people who are not vaccinated for contagious diseases come in contact with me or my loved ones, though. [end quote]

    Alice: Why don’t you get a blood test for your family and find out if they are really immune to the diseases that scare you? That way your kids could go to the playground again, and the mall without wearing masks.

    How nice you show such respect to doctors…….that’s another question I have here. If someone isn’t your doctor are you supposed to call them Doc?

    >>you lack true research abilities.

    How so? What should I be researching? [end quote]

    Alice: Swim team……..more later….this one means I have to think.

    >>You sure are paranoid that I am going to hunt you down and fellowship with your family (you have mentioned it repeatedly).>>

    I’m quite sure I’ve never mentioned fellowship. Casual contact is more than risky enough, IMO.

    Alice: Do you let the owners into your office? Scary!

    >>Are you sure your kids names aren’t Hansel and Gretel? You know I have a house made of candy and I eat children when it’s a full moon.>>

    I think you’ve muddled your fairy tales.

    Alice: Depends which version you read, although I did through in the full moon for effect. Of course, it all relates to immunizations……..it just depends which tale you want to believe.

    • DVM

      >>We can’t have each person’s fetishes contained when there is no real health or security threat.>>

      If you ever have the opportunity to visit San Diego, perhaps you could look up the parents of the three infants too young to vaccinate who contracted measles in their pediatrician’s office waiting room from an unvaccinated 7-year-old. Ask those parents whether they think unvaccinated children are a health threat. I’m sure they’d enjoy some fellowship.

      >>Now come on……..admit it……..you would like the a few radicals lock away from mankind?>>

      Can’t think of any at the moment.

      >>We don’t need that stinkin’ textbook in this debate.

      As I mentioned previously, I consult my old immunology textbook with some frequency. It’s quite a useful reference. A good investment.

      >>We have the experts right here, who keep refusing to sum it up in simple terms.>>

      Well, I admit I can’t sum up a 600-page immunology book in a few simple terms. The glossary alone is 10 pages long.

      >>My take is about personal rights and knowledge about the risks.>>

      Knowledge about the risks of what?

      >>See above and my post from last night, and the night before, and the night before……>>

      Yes, that’s true, your posts are somewhat repetitive.

      >>Why don’t you get a blood test for your family and find out if they are really immune to the diseases that scare you?>>

      Titers are an imperfect method of determining whether one is immune or not.

      >>How nice you show such respect to doctors

      It’s collegial.

      >>If someone isn’t your doctor are you supposed to call them Doc?>>

      I suppose that depends upon the situation.

      >>this one means I have to think.

      Excellent.

      >>Do you let the owners into your office? Scary!

      Yes. I buy Purell by the case.

  • DO Student Doc

    This debate is actually quite instructive and illustrates a point made often elsewhere. If this were a debate on plasma physics or structural engineering, folks who had no formal training in these fields would think it rather silly to weigh in and “argue” with professionals in these fields. Indeed, lots of folks have read Brian Green’s tome on String Theory, “The Elogant Universe” and have understood the simplistic explanations he offers. However, most lay people understand that they don’t really understand String Theory, they understand his simplistic explanations of String Theory.

    Similarly, one can get on the Internet and look stuff up on WebMD or Wrong Diagnosis or a thousand of other sites and get lots of “facts without experience” and simplistic explanations but they really don’t understand these challenging and complex subjects, they understand the simplistic explanations offered. Somehow folks seem to feel that this simplistic understanding is some sort of surrogate for the 12-20 years of training physicians must endure before they can ply their craft. Folks would not dream of walking up to the foreman of a crew building a bridge on a major highway and demanding that they hear and consider their “point of view” on how to build the bridge. In fact, they’d be escorted away by police and told that they don’t know what they’re talking about because they’re not an engineer. However, folks with no formal medical training will read an article in Prevention Mag and demand that their doctor prescribe them some drug for some disease that they don’t have and thing themselves perfectly rational individuals.

    In the same way, to read the simplistic (and, sometimes factually wrong) information on certain websites or talk with their supposedly knowledgeable friends and then assume that they understand a complicated subject as well as the average physician (minimum of 12 years of training) is ludicrus. To then accuse the physician of “belittling” them when the physician politely informs them that they are confused or misinformed shows a profound lack of respect for the rigors of training and the value of that training. It also trivializes the consequences of improper action!

    IMHO, this is at the core of much that is happening in medicine today. Folks have forgotten what a technical and complex area medicine is and glibbly assume that all one needs to do is read a few articles or discuss things with a friend and they’re set, they have all the answers and know as much as their doctor.

    All I can say is, “Good luck with that!” As I was oft to remind my biology students when I was a prof, until one becomes comfortable with not knowing, one is incapable of learning. When one insists on arguing with folks who actually have both knowledge and the experience to know how accurately interperate that knowledge, one will never really learn anything; they will only seek to bolster their own position.

    • DVM

      >>until one becomes comfortable with not knowing, one is incapable of learning>>

      Well, of course.

      This is the most sensible comment I’ve seen in this discussion, in some time.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Hi| Sorry about the messy posts, but I am rushed and kids are talking. I love debate because it gives you a wonderful opportunity to learn from your opponent. When it is done well it can be enlightening, although I realize once a person’s mind is made up all the persuasion in the world rarely changes their mind. This is when our personal experiences come into play and rationale often goes out the window……..emotions are extremely powerful and can bring down kingdoms. This is a highly charged emotionally charged issue which clouds our logic.

    So…do you propose some kind of government issued armband for the unimmunized?

  • DVM

    >>do you propose some kind of government issued armband for the unimmunized?>>

    I’m a veterinarian. I favor eartags and brands, myself.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Could we get the discrediting of posters lack of immunological, diaobological, ignoble thoughts off the table? From where I am sitting it
    is a moot point and the patrons are getting antsy! All the roaring is making them assured that their previous assumptions were correct afterall.

    Can we discuss the moral part of the patient/doctor relationship without having to read a 600 page book on advocacy? To keep putting the focus on who is delivering their information without sufficiently answering the opponents sincere questions means you do not know yourself, or it looks like fear mongering to get someone on your side of the fence. Even as a non immunizer I think I could make a better argument for the shots than the condescending attitudes I have witnessed here by some people who sound demeaning while boasting about the years they have spent in school. I believe our politicians can prove the educational theory…at least on a moral basis, as something that isn’t helping the thought process (I volunteer at a conservative, political think tank with my kids, so maybe that makes me a political pundit……egads……what flawed thinking that would be. Highly intellectual people disagree all the time even immunologists can disagree)

    Oops…gotta drive….and ya’ know I don’t like to live dangerously

    • http://www.skepticalob.com Amy Tuteur, MD

      “Could we get the discrediting of posters lack of immunological … thoughts off the table?”

      No, as a matter of fact, we cannot.

      Vaccine rejectionism is based on ignorance: ignorance of science, ignorance of basic statistics, ignorance of virology and above all, ignorance of immunology.

      If you don’t know basic immunology, you can’t understand vaccines. Period.

      You can keep telling us your uninformed personal opinion about vaccination, but since it is not based on reality, it is worthless.

    • DVM

      >>Can we discuss the moral part of the patient/doctor relationship without having to read a 600 page book on advocacy?>>

      Well, I guess you could start with the 10 page glossary, but I don’t think a list of definitions would make much sense out of context.

      I’m also inordinately fond of the journal “Trends in Immunology” (formerly: “Immunology Today”), even though it’s not a veterinary journal. Topical but not too heavy. Abstracts available on-line.

      >>it looks like fear mongering to get someone on your side of the fence>>

      I don’t know why anyone would fear the contents of an immunology book. I think it’s a fascinating subject, myself.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Author: bw
    Comment:
    I apologize if I came off as preachy. I prefer… idealistic. I write these thoughts so
    strongly because idealism is fleeing the modern medical system, but it is the single
    greatest cure for what ails it. Additionally, I am a huge fan of patient education. In
    no way should a patient be a passive participant in their health care. As I said, I read
    literature just as you do. However, I recognize that the opinions and thoughts that I
    have about ‘East of Eden’ are without some necessary background that you, as a literature
    teacher, would surely have. So, through a discussion, I would learn from you and
    together reach an understanding, perhaps richer for the both of us through our
    discussion. [end quote]

    Alice: Your letter was so kind and caring.. how could one not respond in the same? You are to be commended for caring at such a level. I am an idealist too, and as doctors reach out like this maybe idealism will become a reality? I take my daughter in for her neck dissection consultation with the surgeon we love (he has read this board, and knows all about our undying affection for him! I don’t know how to impart here that I am not a bad patient’s mom, just really nervous about the mistakes that have been made. I am learning too, but in some ways sad…..I don’t like this road…and fight an internal battle everyday to deal with this medical system who I feel in some ways has completely crushed my spirit. Yet, I am so grateful for our doctors (and write to them and tell them this). I wrote an e-mail to our doctor that I desire to be transparent, and kind, and we trust him to a point we would probably do just about anything he recommends.

    I appreciate your humility about literature, but in truth, sometimes a student can outlearn/outgrow their teacher. Some students have a knack for this stuff, but your point is well-taken that through discussion we grow to appreciate another’s vantage point. Your vantage point as a highly-educated caretaker (with experience), is why we need you…..in some cases need you desperately. My vantage point as a mom/patient means I rely on you…….but a part of me silently cries out to please remember my daughter’s face. She’s not a number, nor an just an algorithm…..she is so much more than just a body…….and neither are you. The emotional part of a doctor cannot be completely separated. When my daughter’s doctors share about their personal lives she tells her friends about where they have lived, or what they shared. These personal aspects mean a connection has taken place….that they care beyond her clinic number.

    BW: It should be no different in the physician’s office. I understand the reasons that it is
    different, with an enormous number of people needing to be seen, Medicare payment cuts,
    high overhead, etc ad nauseam. This is why we need an injection of idealism. [end quote]

    Alice: Some would argue that realism is stomping out idealism. How refreshing your vision of idealism remains amidst the potholes that cause many doctors to stumble. I think your vision remains intact. A doctor wrote me the nicest note privately yesterday. He said he is reminded of his letter for entry to medical school where you share your dream. It was so nice I shared some of it with our doctor in an e-mail yesterday. It was a touching response to my open letters here. How my heart appreciated it. His letter, and your letter prompts something within a patient’s heart that putting patients on the defensive will never do (which takes us back to the start of this conversation where I sorta begged that they don’t shut down the non-immunizers by slamming the door and labeling them. All that does is reinforce within them that they have made a good decision).

    BW: The patient-physician relationship is a sacred one, wherein a person places the knowledge
    of their health fully and confidentially into the hands of someone that they hope to be
    more expert in medical matters than themselves, and seek advice. It is a fragile
    relationship and one that is based on a great deal of trust. This trust is so lacking in
    our current health-care “system” that it is nearly impossible to find someone
    who will simply take the time to listen and offer their medical opinion, and accept that
    it may be taken or refused. [end quote]

    Alice: I hear music………grin……….keep singing………a melody I think…to a patient’s heart.

    BW: So you ask whose opinion to take if you have two physicians giving different opinions,
    which surely they will do for medicine is as much art as it is a science. I say that you
    listen to the one that you trust, because ultimately, you are the only one responsible
    for your own health. [end quote]

    Alice: You are right……I switched doctors……….but trust………so hard when you are terrified.

    BW: I speak of humility. I directed it towards patients in my last comment because that is
    where it seemed necessary for that comment. But there is a definite need for physician
    humility as well. In this role, there needs to be a humility and understanding that
    while western medicine has cures for all sorts of infectious and potentially fatal
    diseases, we need to remember that our profession began on the autopsy table. We are
    much better at preventing death and dismemberment than we are restoring life.
    Additionally, physicians often hide behind labels like “noncompliant”, or
    “crazy” as a form of pride, because surely the physician did not fail to spend
    adequate time to persuade the patient as to the wisdom of his advice or fail to fully
    seek out why that advice would be undesireable (see, I can be sarcastic too). [end quote]

    Alice: I love sarcasm…….really I do…….it’s a form of wit and it makes a point much better than several paragraphs of writing, and causes the reader to smile, or think. I lived in the UK the land of sardonic humor……. so let me say….you won’t have much pride after they feast on you. My roots are Scottish and my husband immigrated here from Scotland……so I am basically just an educated barbarian at heart. Tameable…..but a persistent pest if need be. You need a sense of humor to deal with the medical system, and sometimes even that isn’t enough to overcome some of the……um…crap. And doctors are their own worse enemies, and it’s ashame your own colleagues do far more damage than good at times. It only takes one arrogant doctor to sour most patients. And the nurses seem to hate the doctors more than the patients do. And, yet, I believe most patients have a longing to have a relationship with their doctor. Some seem pleasantly surprised if a doctor shows any interest at all in them on a personal level. I will say one doctor from Eastern Europe shared some of the funnier comments some of his patients throw at him (“Communist”, “Nazi Lover” and he isn’t from Germany………he thought it was a big howl, but then again he didn’t read the patient’s charts and loved to make jokes all the time. Your belly was sore from laughter, but you left there with a feeling of neglect. Most medical errors are overcomeable, but not when cancer is loose in your daughter’s body……….truly I have felt absolute terror at times after leaving a doctor’s visit).

    BW: It’s a broken system we live in, and we are all struggling to live within it. But we
    need to maintain a mutual respect that can only be engendered in a room, face to face
    with another person.

    Alice: Absolutely, and your letter and attitude will do more to help heal it than all the pride some doctor’s spout. Thank you for not coming across as a Great Swami! Although, your patients may very well consider you a great doctor.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    >>do you propose some kind of government issued armband for the
    unimmunized?>>

    I’m a veterinarian. I favor eartags and brands, myself.
    [end quote]

    Alice: LOL I love it. My kids and I will be over shortly………oh that’s right you can’t get too close to us……ya’ know we have cooties too. Egads……my new puppy just brought in a dead squirrel and is throwing it around……..girls screaming…….ugh….

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>We can’t have each person’s fetishes contained when there is no real health
    or security threat.>>

    If you ever have the opportunity to visit San Diego, perhaps you could look up the
    parents of the three infants too young to vaccinate who contracted measles in their
    pediatrician’s office waiting room from an unvaccinated 7-year-old. Ask those parents
    whether they think unvaccinated children are a health threat. I’m sure they’d enjoy some
    fellowship. [end quote]

    Alice: I don’t deny that, but there are deaths from the shots to (and injuries)
    . I have shared the shots are safer (and probably less effective). No one is denying that shots can work, but moms are terrified of the risks and only real information is helpful, not telling people to go and get a degree before they can make a decision about their child’s safety. I am no soil expert, but still let my kids play outside. Actually, I am no chef, but still cook.

    >>Now come on……..admit it……..you would like the a few radicals lock away
    from mankind?>>

    Can’t think of any at the moment. [end quote]

    Alice: Now, don’t be polite……how about me?

    >>We have the experts right here, who keep refusing to sum it up in simple
    terms.>>

    Well, I admit I can’t sum up a 600-page immunology book in a few simple terms. The
    glossary alone is 10 pages long. [end quote]

    Alice: Do you make your patients read a book, or can you sum up a disease and it’s risks succinctly? That’s all I asked for and didn’t receive.

    >>My take is about personal rights and knowledge about the risks.>>

    Knowledge about the risks of what? [end quote]

    Alice: The risk if you get a shot. We know some kids have a predisposition to damage from the MMR shot. Something is causing harm to a certain segment of kids who should not have received the shot. At this point we can’t preview who will get harmed, so moms decide they just can’t take the risk. It feels too risky to them. I don’t understand why doctors can’t have empathy on a concerned mom and give her the information that, in truth, not one doctor here can predict exactly how that shot will affect a child. They can say that they have never had a patient damaged to their knowledge, but you would need a crystal ball in your office to know for sure. I have shared my little cousin died at age 2 from the MMR and the parents tried to sue, but couldn’t. I will never go to the funeral of a child ever again. It was one of the saddest days in my entire life.

    >>See above and my post from last night, and the night before, and the night
    before……>>

    Yes, that’s true, your posts are somewhat repetitive. [end quote]

    Alice: Now, now, don’t take my compliments on your sarcasm to heart too much………..I repeat, because you keep asking the same questions. There……. and ya’ know repetition is the best way to learn when people don’t get it the first time! :)

    >>Why don’t you get a blood test for your family and find out if they are really
    immune to the diseases that scare you?>>

    Titers are an imperfect method of determining whether one is immune or not. [end quote]

    Alice: Two of my doctors said your blood will show if you have full immunity. So…..there…….twice!

    >>Do you let the owners into your office? Scary!

    Yes. I buy Purell by the case. [end quote]

    Alice: Well…….what if you become immune to it?

    • DVM

      >>only real information is helpful, not telling people to go and get a degree before they can make a decision about their child’s safety>>

      I’m sure those parents in San Diego are pleased that the parents of the intentionally unvaccinated child made a decision that affected not only the unvaccinated child, but their three infant children who were too young to vaccinate for measles.

      >>Do you make your patients read a book, or can you sum up a disease and it’s risks succinctly?>>

      My patients can’t read.

      >>That’s all I asked for and didn’t receive.

      Well, I’m not going to be any help here, as I’m not a physician.

      >>not one doctor here can predict exactly how that shot will affect a child.>>

      I’m sure the physicians who cared for my childhood playmate didn’t predict she’d die from chicken pox, either.

      >>ya’ know repetition is the best way to learn when people don’t get it the first time!>>

      What am I supposed to be learning?

      >>Two of my doctors said your blood will show if you have full immunity.>>

      That’s not exactly true, but I’m not surprised. I’ve heard many of my colleagues make similar statements; it’s actually a hotly debated topic on veterinary listservs.

      I was not entirely forthcoming: prior to veterinary school, I enjoyed a year-long, graduate level seminar in basic immunology. My veterinary school immunology course was basic in comparison.

      >>what if you become immune to it?

      I don’t think it’s possible to become immune to Purell. Do you mean allergic? I sure hope not, but there are other brands on the market.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    All I can say is, “Good luck with that!” As I was oft to remind my biology
    students when I was a prof, until one becomes comfortable with not knowing, one is
    incapable of learning. When one insists on arguing with folks who actually have both
    knowledge and the experience to know how accurately interperate that knowledge, one will
    never really learn anything; they will only seek to bolster their own position.
    [end quote]

    Alice: And I’ll bet your students are sitting there thinking exactly what some readers are thinking, “Oh what the heck to these guys know?” ha!

    How odd that a closed mind wants students to learn from them? I think you need more respect for those you presume to teach. Teachers who love, and instruct their students with humility are the best teachers I have ever met. That’s why some use a Socratic type of method with their students, and not the “Listen to me……I am Socrates” junk!

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>It’s pretty remarkeable when you stop and think about medical knowledge and how
    much trust it takes to read a medical journal and actually incorporate the results of a
    study into practice.>>

    Well, personally, I don’t trust anything published in a veterinary (or medical) journal
    until I’ve read the article critically.[end quote]

    Alice: Want to share with us how one approaches something critically? That would be informative how one approaches anything they read.

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>Can we discuss the moral part of the patient/doctor relationship without having
    to read a 600 page book on advocacy?>>

    DVM: Well, I guess you could start with the 10 page glossary, but I don’t think a list of
    definitions would make much sense out of context. [end quote]

    Alice: Yeah, and it would be lost on imbeciles like my PhD friend and I, and his research nurse wife (who did vast research on vaccines, and has three doctorates). We did find some really good fodder in the letters that imply one can’t enter the fray without a Bachelors of BS degree. Ack……….no I’ll stop….cybergag me for now because mentally I have to get prepared for the surgery consultation tomorrow. It’s on my mind a lot, but thank you for the good-type of distractions I am finding here. It’s interesting, and a bit entertaining on some levels……..which is exactly what a good debate is.

    DVM:
    >>it looks like fear mongering to get someone on your side of the fence>>

    I don’t know why anyone would fear the contents of an immunology book. I think it’s a
    fascinating subject, myself. [end quote]

    Alice: I was speaking about the shots, not the book.

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>only real information is helpful, not telling people to go and get a degree
    before they can make a decision about their child’s safety>>

    I’m sure those parents in San Diego are pleased that the parents of the intentionally
    unvaccinated child made a decision that affected not only the unvaccinated child, but
    their three infant children who were too young to vaccinate for measles.

    Alice: Okay, let’s look at the MMR…..how many kids are injured or dead from the shot compared to the horrific incident above?

    DVM: >>Do you make your patients read a book, or can you sum up a disease and it’s
    risks succinctly?>>

    My patients can’t read. [end quote]

    Alice: Well………aren’t you just tickling my funny bone today! ha! I like it! You knew what I meant……..let’s say I track you down and bring all my diseased kids into your office…..and what if………oh my gosh………they actually played volleyball with your kids (the thought of your kids pure hands touching the same ball as my children must be making you cringe right now). I mean it’s not like we glow……how do you go out in public with a paranoia like you have against the unimmunized?

    DVM:
    >>not one doctor here can predict exactly how that shot will affect a
    child.>>

    I’m sure the physicians who cared for my childhood playmate didn’t predict she’d die from chicken pox, either. [end quote]

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>It’s pretty remarkeable when you stop and think about medical knowledge and how
    much trust it takes to read a medical journal and actually incorporate the results of a
    study into practice.>>

    Well, personally, I don’t trust anything published in a veterinary (or medical) journal
    until I’ve read the article critically.[end quote]

    Alice: Want to share with us how one approaches something critically? That would be informative how one approaches anything they read.

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>Can we discuss the moral part of the patient/doctor relationship without having
    to read a 600 page book on advocacy?>>

    Well, I guess you could start with the 10 page glossary, but I don’t think a list of
    definitions would make much sense out of context. [end quote]

    Alice: Yeah, and it would be lost on imbeciles like my PhD friend and I, and his research nurse wife. We did find some really good fodder in the letters that imply one can’t enter the fray without a Bachelors of BS degree.

    DVM:
    >>it looks like fear mongering to get someone on your side of the fence>>

    I don’t know why anyone would fear the contents of an immunology book. I think it’s a
    fascinating subject, myself. [end quote]

    Alice: I was speaking about the shots, not the book.

    Author: DVM
    Comment:
    >>only real information is helpful, not telling people to go and get a degree
    before they can make a decision about their child’s safety>>

    I’m sure those parents in San Diego are pleased that the parents of the intentionally
    unvaccinated child made a decision that affected not only the unvaccinated child, but
    their three infant children who were too young to vaccinate for measles.

    Alice: What do you say to physicians who say the shots are dangerous to certain children? I talked to a doctor today about this, and they felt the shots have an element of danger, but in the medical world risks are a given (they, also, threw in a…….medical school has some brainwashing). Better start ordering those markers in bulk because more-and-more parents aren’t getting the shots (I know what you are going to say………you will say the diseases will increase. They just might, which makes my point about knowledgeable parents and education of the ones who don’t vaccinate even more important. I do not think it’s wise to just think the government has a conspiracy going and doctors are evil, so we are going to thumb our nose at the medical establishment. My friend died with that perspective). And I thought a good physician could treat this early (I know I saw a case with a child with chickenpox and the lesions became infected and the child did die. The precautions they listed were ones I wish more parents understood).

    I really wish there was a way to know what and why some children just can’t be vaccinated without great threat to their future. Even if it’s a small amount of children I hope someday research will be able to figure out why there are injuries like learning disabilities, etc. from the shots. That would make the shots much safer and ease parent’s fears.

    DVM: >>Do you make your patients read a book, or can you sum up a disease and it’s
    risks succinctly?>>

    My patients can’t read. [end quote]

    Alice: Well………aren’t you just tickling my funny bone today! ha! I like it! You knew what I meant……..let’s say I track you down and bring all my diseased kids into your office…..and what if………oh my gosh………they actually played volleyball with your kids (the thought of your kids pure hands touching the same ball as my children must be making you cringe right now). I mean it’s not like we glow……how do you go out in public with a paranoia like you have against the unimmunized?

    DVM:
    >>not one doctor here can predict exactly how that shot will affect a
    child.>>

    I’m sure the physicians who cared for my childhood playmate didn’t predict she’d die from
    chicken pox, either. [end quote]

    Alice: What do you say to physicians who say the shots are dangerous. I talked to a doctor today about this, and they agree with me. Better start ordering those markers in bulk.

    DVM: >>ya’ know repetition is the best way to learn when people don’t get it the
    first time!>>

    What am I supposed to be learning? [end quote]

    Alice: Umm……….nah………..I’ll be polite!

    DVM: >>Two of my doctors said your blood will show if you have full immunity.>>

    That’s not exactly true, but I’m not surprised. I’ve heard many of my colleagues make
    similar statements; it’s actually a hotly debated topic on veterinary listservs.

    I was not entirely forthcoming: prior to veterinary school, I enjoyed a year-long,
    graduate level seminar in basic immunology. My veterinary school immunology course was
    basic in comparison. [end quote]

    Alice: I like your honesty……..so teach me…….teach me…….teach me………

    DVM: >>what if you become immune to it?

    I don’t think it’s possible to become immune to Purell. Do you mean allergic? I sure
    hope not, but there are other brands on the market. [end quote]

    Alice: It’s not foolproof ya’ know. Some of those nasty germs can live on. They seem to have a life and identity of their own, and I think some of them are online posting as we speak! There I go again……….talking about germs……and I am not even a germologist! tee hee hee Epi…….what….ologist? The cheek of some folks, eh?!
    DVM: >>ya’ know repetition is the best way to learn when people don’t get it the
    first time!>>

    What am I supposed to be learning? [end quote]

    Alice: Umm……….nah………..I’ll be polite!

    DVM: >>Two of my doctors said your blood will show if you have full immunity.>>

    That’s not exactly true, but I’m not surprised. I’ve heard many of my colleagues make
    similar statements; it’s actually a hotly debated topic on veterinary listservs.

    I was not entirely forthcoming: prior to veterinary school, I enjoyed a year-long,
    graduate level seminar in basic immunology. My veterinary school immunology course was
    basic in comparison. [end quote]

    Alice: I like your honesty……..so teach me…….teach me…….teach me………

    DVM: >>what if you become immune to it?

    I don’t think it’s possible to become immune to Purell. Do you mean allergic? I sure
    hope not, but there are other brands on the market. [end quote]

    Alice: It’s not foolproof ya’ know. Some of those nasty germs can live on. They seem to have a life and identity of their own, and I think some of them are online posting as we speak! There I go again……….talking about germs……and I am not even a germologist! tee hee hee Epi…….what….ologist? The cheek of some folks, eh?!

    • DVM

      >>Want to share with us how one approaches something critically? That would be informative how one approaches anything they read.>>

      Well, the first step in reading anything critically is to understand the subject matter. When I read a journal article about a new vaccine, for example, I need to understand the disease (virology/bacteriology, pathology, immunology, etc.), the patient (physiology, pathology, etc.), the population (epidemiology) and basic vaccine design (pathology, immunology).

      One of my undergraduate majors was English. We didn’t discuss Ulysses, for example, without reading and understanding the text.

      >>it would be lost on imbeciles like my PhD friend and I, and his research nurse wife (who did vast research on vaccines, and has three doctorates).>>

      As others have already pointed out, not everyone with a PhD in a science-related field has necessarily taken even a single, basic immunology course. Immunology is a required course for both medical and veterinary school, though.

      >>let’s look at the MMR…..how many kids are injured or dead from the shot compared to the horrific incident above?>>

      That “horrific incident” is only one of many. Google produced news stories describing recent U.S. outbreaks of pertussis, meningococcal meningitis, and mumps, just to name a few.

      If human vaccines have as low a rate of associated risks as do veterinary vaccines, the actual disease would present a much greater risk of morbidity (and mortality) than would the vaccine.

      >>how do you go out in public with a paranoia like you have against the unimmunized?>>

      It’s not paranoia if the risk is real.

      >>they felt the shots have an element of danger, but in the medical world risks are a given>>

      Well, yes.

      >>you will say the diseases will increase. They just might>>

      Physicians will see patients suffering from diseases they’ve only read about in textbooks. That’s a given.

      >>which makes my point about knowledgeable parents and education of the ones who don’t vaccinate even more important.>>

      I agree it’s important that parents who don’t vaccinate should understand they’ll be the cause of outbreaks of disease that will result in illness and death.

      >>And I thought a good physician could treat this early (I know I saw a case with a child with chickenpox and the lesions became infected and the child did die. The precautions they listed were ones I wish more parents understood>>

      My childhood friend did not die of infected chicken pox lesions.

      >>I really wish there was a way to know what and why some children just can’t be vaccinated without great threat to their future.>>

      As a veterinarian, I’d be happy if I could predict which animals might have an anaphylactic reaction. I can’t.

      >>teach me…….teach me…….teach me………

      Humoral immunity is mediated by antibodies. Cell-mediated immunity is not. Furthermore, interpretation of titers is useless without established “protective” levels, which sometimes are not protective in a given individual. High titers can even result in disease in certain individuals.

      That’s 600 pages in four sentences. I suspect much has been lost in translation.

      Suffice it to say that a high titer is not necessarily protective, and a low titer does not necessarily indicate a lack of protection.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Ack……sorry about the mess above (forgot to delete what was typed in then hit paste………silly girl I am) …………gotta get going……your smart enough to figure it out though……….you gotta a degree in postology………right?

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    My friend (Alice is purposefully hiding his credentials because even if he was the Surgeon General someone would write and say if they don’t immunize they are in the monkey camp) said this about the doctors claiming to have the grip on immunology (I sent him the post): “Talk about dogmatic as opposed to physicians who get a few hours about immunology in med school…” It’s a lecture in pathology and they just brag that they know all of this (hence, why they can’t give a succinct answer). “They just think they have studied immunology”.
    We are thinking some people are pridefully bluffing, and discounting others while puffing themselves up. Would the real immunologist please stand up?

    • DVM

      >>It’s a lecture in pathology

      Immunology was a full-semester course (4 hours/week), separate from anatomical pathology (a three semester course, not including clinical pathology, which was its own course), in my veterinary school curriculum.

      >>“They just think they have studied immunology”.

      Don’t think I imagined it. There was a midterm and final, and I received a grade.

      >>Would the real immunologist please stand up?

      No one in this discussion is an immunologist. Everyone in this discussion who attended veterinary or medical school studied basic immunology in some detail.

  • Molly Ciliberti, RN

    Need to weed out the nonsense comments. Vaccinations save lives. Measles is a nasty disease and the effects on unborn children can be catastrophic. The herd must be at 90% protected by vaccination to protect those too young or immune compromised. Stupidity is rampant in this country and many will pay for it perhaps with their lives.

    • DVM

      >>Vaccinations save lives.

      Yes, they do. Because my patients are animals, not humans, I occasionally treat populations. Vaccination is a Very Good Thing, and highly effective at preventing disease outbreaks. In the case of contagious disease, successful control requires that everyone who can participate, must participate, in order to protect those who truly cannot.

      >>Stupidity is rampant in this country and many will pay for it perhaps with their lives.>>

      Unfortunately, the first to be seriously harmed tend to be those too young to be vaccinated – NOT the intentionally unvaccinated.

      Slightly off topic, but the hand-washing article posted today on this site points out that overall, humans tend to be far more concerned about their own safety vs. the safety of others. Not surprising, but stupid and selfish.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Molly writes:
    Need to weed out the nonsense comments. Vaccinations save lives. Measles is a nasty
    disease and the effects on unborn children can be catastrophic. The herd must be at 90%
    protected by vaccination to protect those too young or immune compromised. Stupidity is
    rampant in this country and many will pay for it perhaps with their lives. [end quote]

    But Molly….if you kept up with the thread you are supposed to proclaim your credentials about why you can have an opinion.

    I am thinking some doctors and nurses need anger management to deal with their perverse feelings about potential patients. And I am thinking some people need to learn how to understand a debate. Once I get back from the surgeon’s office I hope to write out about to do research and debate, and how to sit on your hands if you are too angry (because the logic center isn’t available the way it should be………..hey……….I am bloomin’ neurologist now! ha!)

    I am a Jack of All Ologists!
    >>>>

  • DO Student Doc
    • DVM

      Exactly.

      According to today’s news reports, the death toll is up to five infants now.

      • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice Robertson

        How many of the five children that died were immunized for whooping cough? And the article uses the word “may”. With the three babies being so young, it wouldn’t seem the immunization would not have helped either way. I live in Ohio and there is a pertussis outbreak here (I am not worried about it though, because as I shared my youngest is now a teen. I certainly don’t want it, but if we do we will survive). I do know one family that has six children and got it, but I believe they immunize. We think the safer shots probably didn’t really work well with her young children.

        My friend said sometimes with whooping cough it’s a guess on the doctor’s diagnosis. Is this true? Can they use antibiotics? In my friend’s family all the kids were vaccinated and got the whooping cough, while her husband who was not vaccinated didn’t get it. Considernig they can understand our DNA and genetics so much better, I am thinking someday they will have a clue as to how to prevent vaccine deaths. They just need to know what to look for.

        It’s a hard call for some moms because their babies immune system isn’t fully developed, so they want to hold off. I think that’s a wiser approach (the one my doctor uses, and special ordered shots). Would early intervention have helped?

        Sorry about the questions. It’s been a long, emotionally draining day. I know I should look up these answers, but I figure someone here will know the answers. My brain is too tired for the sorting and sifting of internet answers.

        • DO Student Doc

          Alice wrote:

          “My friend said sometimes with whooping cough it’s a guess on the doctor’s diagnosis. Is this true? Can they use antibiotics? In my friend’s family all the kids were vaccinated and got the whooping cough, while her husband who was not vaccinated didn’t get it. Considernig (sic) they can understand our DNA and genetics so much better, I am thinking someday they will have a clue as to how to prevent vaccine deaths. They just need to know what to look for.”

          Let’s take these points in turn and see what we can do…

          Pertussis (Whooping Cough) is caused by the bacterium Bordetella pertussis and is typically treated with antibiotics in the erythromycin family. It is readily preventable with vaccination (DPT or DTaP) and typically those most as risk are the very young (too young to receive the vaccination) and the very old as well as the immune compromised.

          The diagnosis is made from the symptomology and history but the presentation can be highly variable. In the cases of diseases like this, the doctor’s patience and ability in collecting a careful history is crucial. However, due to it’s relative rarity, many cases are likely missed (the problem with Zebras). The bacterium can be cultured from airway secretions to confirm the diagnosis and take away some of the guesswork.

          As far as DNA and genetics, they are far from a “magic bullet” that will tell us everything we need to know about a person and allow us to predict who will die from this or that disease or vaccine. Just like the blue prints of a house don’t tell you everything about that building, so the “blue print” contained in our DNA doesn’t tell us everything we might like to know. Canadian science journalist Denyse O’Leary has coined the term “DNA-essentialism” as the incorrect belief that DNA tells us everything we need to know.

          Here’s an article on Whooping Cough:

          http://www.medicinenet.com/pertussis/article.htm

          “It’s a hard call for some moms because their babies immune system isn’t fully developed, so they want to hold off. I think that’s a wiser approach (the one my doctor uses, and special ordered shots). Would early intervention have helped?”

          In this case, vaccination for the kids is not the issue, it’s the unvaccinated kids around them. You’re right that there is a time before which kids cannot be safely vaccinated (for some things, other vaccinations are given at birth). That is partly why “herd immunity” is so critical.

          “I am not worried about it though, because as I shared my youngest is now a teen. I certainly don’t want it, but if we do we will survive.”

          I’m sorry but I find this remark to be absolutely repugnant! You look at multiple dead babies and have the audacity to make such a remark?!? The point is that, if your teenage kids are not vaccinated, it has nothing to do with whether or not THEY will survive but whether or not they will pass some disease on to SOMEONE ELSE who won’t! And, yes, I would tell a patient EXACTLY that if they made the same remark.

          Your whole argument is based on the glib assumption that if one of your kids gets sick you can get them treated before something bad happens. However, the point is that one unvaccinated individual can, in fact, cause a disease outbreak and lead to preventable deaths. That fact that you and many other rejectionists seem to be unmoved by that is disturbing, IMHO.

  • DVM

    >>How many of the five children that died were immunized for whooping cough?>>

    All five were infants too young to vaccinate for whooping cough (number is from a more recent news story, not the story posted on this site). For certain contagious diseases – like influenza, and whooping cough – infants must rely upon herd immunity for protection.

    >>With the three babies being so young, it wouldn’t seem the immunization would not have helped either way.>>

    Vaccination of those children and adults who spread pertussis to the dead infants might have saved the infants’ lives.

    >>I live in Ohio and there is a pertussis outbreak here (I am not worried about it though, because as I shared my youngest is now a teen. I certainly don’t want it, but if we do we will survive).>>

    You might survive, but you also might infect an infant (or elderly person, or person undergoing chemotherapy). Any of those people might die from pertussis.

    Once again: I don’t care whether you, or your unvaccinated children, contract and suffer from preventable diseases. I care about my family, friends, co-workers and clients – some of whom are too young to vaccinate, a couple of whom are elderly with chronic diseases, and several of whom are undergoing chemotherapy.

    I agree with DO Student Doc and Molly Ciliberti, RN: this attitude is repugnant, stupid and selfish.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    From a Larry King transcript:
    Bernadine Healy, M.D (who along with BW and another doctor who posted here actually knows how to read and understand the real gist of this conversation and doesn’t go for the juggular of a poster. That shows me the sign of a good doctor. One who can think, cares about the person sitting there, and doesn’t beat their own chest like Tarzan trying to make themselves look good).

    What is really bothersome is the lack of crying out for true research as this MD from the Cleveland Clinic who headed up the Red Cross, and is married to a top notch doctor there (just like Dr. Oz’s wife), but more importantly has empathy and the ability to truly, truly see what someone is saying before they knee jerk and type with their toes because their fingers are in their ears! :)

    I may e-mail her this weekend if I remember, or hunt down some stuff online in an effort to help those who are truly interested in reading the truth.

    BH said that doctors must “listen to the families of these [autistic] children” because when doctors “listen to the patients the patients will teach.” She added that there is an “embarrassing recognition that we know so little about [autism] in terms of what causes it, in terms of how to treat it” and she called for a “comparison of children who have and have not been vaccinated.”

    another snippet: Dr. Bernadine Healy single handedly re-instilled faith in many parents that the time honored Hippocratic oath for physicians to “First, Do No Harm”………. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPT S/0904/03/lkl.01.html

    Alice: Is it true the American Academy of Pediatrics is financed largely by drug companies? Isn’t there something unethical about that? Some say it’s in the billions.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Have you ever read the classic book, “How to Read a Book”? That would be so helpful if people would ask a poster what they mean before blasting. I am astonished that such supposedly well-educated people would react without actually reading the intent or at least trying to gain the original writer’s intent. When I said I am not worried about my teens getting whooping couch it was because if they do, they do. I don’t want to go on a witch hunt for who gave it to us. They would probably have been immunized anyways, because as I shared most kids are immunized against whooping couch, and most of the kids who get it were immunized.

    Were these babies who died in a daycare? Do they actually know the source (sorry for the questions……..but golly……..cut me some slack……..doctors like Amy, and nurses like Molly, who claim they are so caring and here I sit struggling through cancer of a child I love more than life itself, and they come on like Attila the Hun with such uncaring attitudes it should prompt their own patients to realize they aren’t empathetic at all. I am tired, and anxious, so my posts are often messy, but privately I have cheerleaders so I continue on. I write from a mother’s heart and anyone in medicine who sees patients should take heed because they may have a patient who thinks just like me. Learn from this……..isn’t that what we are here? Oh yes, it’s to be right…..foolish me)? Are you certain it was unimmunized children? Too many assumptions are being made and you really do seem to be on a witch hunt, but maybe you should look at the shots themselves.

    Again, I really am not worried if someone gives my kids whooping cough. If they were babies, or even toddlers I would be concerned, but we will survive if we get it and a shot can’t do what you claim it will.

    For goodness sakes learn how to read. I shared that two families I know WERE immunized and got it. Were they irresponsible, or the shot, or the loudmouths?

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    DO Doc:I’m sorry but I find this remark to be absolutely repugnant! You look at multiple dead babies and have the audacity to make such a remark?!? [end quote]

    Well then it’s repugnant that you don’t even know if your kids are really immunized. Watch who you pridefully point a finger at, because we both know that shot isn’t foolproof. You just think you are immunized. The stats show the vast majority of kids who get whooping cough were given the shots, so how are you going to change that. Changing me isn’t going to help as much as changing the shots back to the dangerous shots they once were. Maybe you should go and see if they can make up a
    special batch for you, Molly, and Amy’s families so you can then be so sure of yourself….because at this point………you are irritatingly prideful and a bit deceitful to the public you speak to, unless you have had an antibody test (and that’s right from a doctor’s mouth who studied immunology and feels too well educated to come here and post because they feel a few doctors, and a nurse are being arrogant and falsely altruistic). And you better make sure anyone that comes in contact with your kids has the right antibodies least you have to avoid them and try to publicly crucify them with your short-sided, and sometimes foolish comments (is there an immunization for pride? I have thick skin, but my doctor friends actually told me to stop posting because they feel …well………I am not going to repeat what they said about a few of the posts in the last few days that got personal while telling us what great/smart people they are. If they are great people they would reword it and stop playing the Mother Teresa of the Immunization set….oops………I forgot she was humble and kind……..I shouldn’t disgrace her memory).

    I shared with my surgeon yesterday that one feels like a “human sacrifice” on this board because it is attracting people who can’t do good research. I shared with him that I realize a segment of our side has some loud mouths and he said they
    are on both sides and what he is really against is “ignorance”. He was right, of course……….we love this brilliant surgeon/researcher. He can think outside of the box.

    At this point only BW and another doctor who wrote privately actually “get it”. I guess when we rest on our laurels too much that’s to be expected.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    5 DVM June 24, 2010 at 5:19 am

    Alice previously said: >>Want to share with us how one approaches something critically? That would be informative how one approaches anything they read.>>

    First of all……DVM……..I like your persistence and honesty (even though we disagree……honesty is one of the best virtues…….of course, kindness is the one that grabs you………..but that’s for another day. I just wish more people would post under a first name. I don’t know why I feel that way. I like it when there is a link to a person’s Twitter, Facebook and you can see them [I know it doesn't really matter, but I like that personal element]).

    Well, the first step in reading anything critically is to understand the subject matter. When I read a journal article about a new vaccine, for example, I need to understand the disease (virology/bacteriology, pathology, immunology, etc.), the patient (physiology, pathology, etc.), the population (epidemiology) and basic vaccine design (pathology, immunology). [end quote]

    Alice: Hmmm……..and to think I thought all you needed was a copy of Animal Farm! :) Why didn’t you take a course on understanding how to talk to the animals? ha! No animal psychiatry? That would have helped you a lot with any internet battles and all the animals posting there. Wonder if James Herriott had to be so well-rounded to understand his clients, actually, one wonders if he could have been a vet at all these days. I read that doctors are using youtube.com at times to refresh their memories on procedures they have long forgotten (I believe the post was about an infected toenail……..me thinks they needed a course in toeology……..I have had a lot of funology with this one). I just like playing with words……no I am not an etymologist, so maybe I should go back to baby talk……or at the very least start to play Scrabble.

    I want to post something on research/debate for the common man, so all of mere mortalogists can enter the fray. I am thinking Amy should post on a medical board with a log-in, with credentialed clientele if she wants a true debate on immunology and shots (of course, as BW pointed out so-well if everyone is using the same textbook how can we really be objective). Because coming to an open forum, then disqualifying people (who actually have no idea what she took in school, and after almost a week she still hasn’t been able to give a summation about what in the heck it is we don’t understand) really seems to be ill-mannered and a bit segregationist.

    DMV: One of my undergraduate majors was English. We didn’t discuss Ulysses, for example, without reading and understanding the text. [end quote]

    Alice: It wouldn’t be my pick, but in context I am thinking if Helen wrote about her tale of woe while waiting to be saved……..gosh……..I can sure relate to that one this week! :) In reflection I just wondered if those soldiers were immunized before they all got in that Trojan Horse, then went to the island in search of food. I mean those islanders probably had some very nasty germs. I mean……..how did mankind survive? Did immunologists find a cure for The Black Plague yet? Imagine if that one comes back?

    Alice previously said: >>it would be lost on imbeciles like my PhD friend and I, and his research nurse wife (who did vast research on vaccines, and has three doctorates).>>

    DMV: As others have already pointed out, not everyone with a PhD in a science-related field has necessarily taken even a single, basic immunology course. Immunology is a required course for both medical and veterinary school, though.

    Alice: Well, you brought up Ulysses…….are you a Greek historian? That’s how foolish this argument looks. I discussed this a surgeon and a doctor friend and they were rolling their eyes.

    Alice previously said: >>let’s look at the MMR…..how many kids are injured or dead from the shot compared to the horrific incident above?>>

    DMV: That “horrific incident” is only one of many. Google produced news stories describing recent U.S. outbreaks of pertussis, meningococcal meningitis, and mumps, just to name a few.

    If human vaccines have as low a rate of associated risks as do veterinary vaccines, the actual disease would present a much greater risk of morbidity (and mortality) than would the vaccine.

    Alice: From the stats it’s pretty clear more kids are injured each year (just read about the fund they force each shot receiver contribute to. The claims far exceed the funding, that’s why people go to court). My tiny cousin who died would have been far better taking his chances because the chances of him getting measles are almost none, and he would be six years old now.

    Now that said I am not completely anti-vaccination. I am anti-vaccination for my own children, and cleaning up the shots, and quality control, and it really bothers me that they culture some in aborted baby parts (that’s a religious argument I will keep off the table…….and I am not that keen on anything cultured in a monkey either).

    I don’t suggest easy answers to this………more…..like just describing a messy situation and I do believe there are more injuries and deaths right now from the shots, but it is definitely getting better……..and as I suggested before……..whether you like the rejectionists or not their screams are helping your children because the shots are safer. Which means they were quite unsafe at one time. And I don’t like the preservative in the shots that is used.

    Alice: >>how do you go out in public with a paranoia like you have against the unimmunized?>>

    DMV: It’s not paranoia if the risk is real.

    Alice: Not if the shots worked, and I realize you have said they aren’t 100% effective, but if you believe that I wonder how your children can go swimming (my friend’s husband got that bacterial strep at a pool, or hot tub), how you can eat meat, go to the dentist, etc., etc.,etc. Actually, you have more of a chance of getting in an accident on the road, than you do getting sick from one of my very healthy kids (except my one child has cancer, and I don’t think that’s catchy……..ugh! Sometimes it drives me batty trying to figure out where the radiation came from that they say caused it).

    Alice said:>>which makes my point about knowledgeable parents and education of the ones who don’t vaccinate even more important.>>

    DMV:I agree it’s important that parents who don’t vaccinate should understand they’ll be the cause of outbreaks of disease that will result in illness and death.

    Alice: >>And I thought a good physician could treat this early (I know I saw a case with a child with chickenpox and the lesions became infected and the child did die. The precautions they listed were ones I wish more parents understood>>

    DMV: My childhood friend did not die of infected chicken pox lesions.

    Alice: Were they asthmatic?

    Alice:>>I really wish there was a way to know what and why some children just can’t be vaccinated without great threat to their future.>>

    DMV: As a veterinarian, I’d be happy if I could predict which animals might have an anaphylactic reaction. I can’t.

    Alice: I tremble putting that flea stuff on my animals. As I shared it’s the rejectionists who need to be thanked, and they have started many organizations we should all be concerned about because the autism research may very well be able to figure out some type of genetic marker that will be able to be identified before the shots are given. To me..this is a huge part of the debate…to at least admit kids get harmed. Those shots are not selective in who they harm and some doctor’s children have been harmed (and some have died) and they get involved in the research. Sadly, their misery will be societies gain.

    >>teach me…….teach me…….teach me………

    DMV: Humoral immunity is mediated by antibodies. Cell-mediated immunity is not. Furthermore, interpretation of titers is useless without established “protective” levels, which sometimes are not protective in a given individual. High titers can even result in disease in certain individuals.

    That’s 600 pages in four sentences. I suspect much has been lost in translation.

    Suffice it to say that a high titer is not necessarily protective, and a low titer does not necessarily indicate a lack of protection.

    Alice: Well many medical employers are still using the titer to test for antibodies and it’s worked for them.

    • DVM

      >>Why didn’t you take a course on understanding how to talk to the animals?>>

      Animal communication? It’s garbage.

      >>No animal psychiatry?

      The veterinary equivalent is the specialty known as Behavior. Very helpful in dealing with all species, including humans.

      >>Wonder if James Herriott had to be so well-rounded to understand his clients, actually, one wonders if he could have been a vet at all these days.>>

      James Herriot’s books, while entertaining, and based on his experiences as a veterinarian, were fictional. That’s why real veterinarians do NOT love the character of James Herriot (even though most of us have read his books).

      >>It wouldn’t be my pick, but in context I am thinking if Helen wrote about her tale of woe>>

      Actually, I was referring to the novel Ulysses, by James Joyce, the great Irish writer. I’m fairly certain there’s no “Helen” in Joyce’s Ulysses, but feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

      >>Did immunologists find a cure for The Black Plague yet? Imagine if that one comes back?>>

      The “black” plague never left. It’s a bacterial infection most frequently carried by fleas that feed on rodents, treated with antibiotics. A few cases occur annually in the U.S., usually in the Southwest. In its aerosolized form, it’s a potential bioterrorism agent.

      >>you brought up Ulysses…….are you a Greek historian?>>

      As I stated earlier, the Ulysses to which I referred is Joyce’s novel, though it is an obvious literary allusion to the Greek Odysseus (“Ulysses” is Latinized). Though I’m not a Greek historian, I did earn a degree in English literature.

      >>From the stats it’s pretty clear more kids are injured each year>>

      To what statistics are you referring?

      >>(just read about the fund they force each shot receiver contribute to. The claims far exceed the funding, that’s why people go to court).>>

      So, if there were no required contribution to this fund, the number of lawsuits would decrease(?)

      In response to your comment about your cousin, here is an anecdote from my practice:

      A client made an appointment for routine vaccinations for her pet. That morning, she called to re-schedule because she had to drive her mother to a doctor’s appointment. Not a problem – certainly, a valid reason to re-schedule. That evening, she paged me because her pet was lethargic and vomiting. Her pet was admitted to the emergency hospital, required several days of IV fluid support and narrowly escaped an exploratory laparotomy. The cause of her pet’s illness is still undetermined.

      Keep in mind I had NOT vaccinated her pet.

      >>(my friend’s husband got that bacterial strep at a pool, or hot tub)>>

      Which strain of “strep” (all “strep” is bacterial)?

      >>how you can eat meat

      I’d never eat uncooked meat. Would you?

      >>go to the dentist

      My dentist washes her hands, wears gloves and a mask, and is vaccinated. I asked.

      >>you have more of a chance of getting in an accident on the road, than you do getting sick from one of my very healthy kids>>

      As I have no plans to visit Ohio anytime soon, that’s probably true.

      >>Were they asthmatic?

      My childhood friend died of encephalitis. Basically, the chicken pox virus invaded her brain.

      >>many medical employers are still using the titer to test for antibodies and it’s worked for them.>>

      “The titer” for what disease(s)? This subject is much more complex than: high titer = protected.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    For those who are truly interested in research….have the ability to think…….I think Bernadette Healy did a better job than me. If Amy and Molly, and DMV, the Doc care that much about children and saving lives, you should at least admit this is what I have been trying to say all along. This discuss is about rights, and lives, it’s about not letting laws be made that are bought and paid for just like a whole litter of doctors………and, yet, the part about this conversation that is the most troubling is that you don’t stop and think about what you just read. I find that terrifying. Personally, I would not go back to a doctor who hasn’t dwelled upon both sides of this issue, and has the ability to see the truth on both sides…….because it’s fine to be pro-immunization…..but your dogmatic stance is troubling because your sources are often making money off the whole deal……….and yet you audaciously come here and act so humanitarian. And you call me repugnant, or selfish or stupid, without realizing your sources are as tainted as some vaccines. Time will eventually bring forth research to help these kids and your words will sit on this board as an indicator to your patients that you just didn’t do your research.

    B. Healy is absolutely right and I would like one of you to show she is wrong. I am just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round and will continue to answer because as I shared I need something to keep my mind busy until the operation, plus this board remains here a long time for a mom who wants the truth to surf by and see. This woman should get an award for having the backbone to tell these doctors that they need to stop and smell the roses (the real ones).

    How dismaying that you would prefer denying the truth, than to tell the truth and help the children who you may very well injure someday. Is it alright to injure a child just because you are so focused on giving that shot? Shame on any doctor who thinks that way.

    Bernadette Healy told CBS investigative journalist Sharyl Atkisson: “I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show….. there may be this susceptible group. The fact that there is concern that you don’t want to know that susceptible group is a real disappointment to me. If you know that susceptible group, you can save those children. If you turn your back on the notion that there is a susceptible group – what can I say?”

    There is a video on this site. Thank God for doctors who don’t give a darn what other doctors think and want to really help the population:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/12/cbsnews_investigates/main4086809.shtml

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Ack! I am not sure what a “whooping couch” is….. Sorry for the typos and left out words. I care for a parent with Alzheimers and often type while he asks me the same question over-and-over. Not sure why it’s the same question everyday, but by about the twentieth time I try to do e-mail to distract myself while I am trying to patiently, and kindly answer the same question I just answered just moments before. It’s exhausting, but in truth, overall, I have enjoyed the debate until people starting to type with a jackhammer.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Question……….if a mother has had whooping cough (the natural way, not the vaccination which I do not believe offers complete immunity) can she pass placental antibodies to her child that could protect the child better than a vaccine during the first year of that child’s life?

    • DVM

      >>can she pass placental antibodies to her child that could protect the child better than a vaccine during the first year of that child’s life?>>

      If humans are like other mammals (many of whom are very different from humans re: passive immunity), this would only last for a few months, not a year. This is a problem, as infants less than a year old cannot be vaccinated for whooping cough. Infants rely upon herd immunity until they’re old enough for vaccination.

      • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

        If humans are like other mammals (many of whom are very different from humans re: passive immunity), this would only last for a few months, not a year. This is a problem, as infants less than a year old cannot be vaccinated for whooping cough. Infants rely upon herd immunity until they’re old enough for vaccination.[end quote]

        Alice: I understand differently. I understand if a mother has the real whooping cough (which the people who have studied immunology should be able to come in share about the different types of antibodies with pertussis) she passes the resistance off for up to a year and her infant shouldn’t get whooping cough.

        This is all theoretical, because anyone who does research or studies it knows with medicine iron-clad formulas don’t work for everyone. What a doctor said was that the shot passes one antibody that doesn’t protect your future children, but the real disease does. So, theoretically, at the most crucial age when a baby can die from whooping cough a mom who had whooping cough naturally may very well pass on a type of protection to that infant that works better than the shot.

        But no matter what way we slice this there are risks no matter what road someone chooses. Childhood diseases used to be more common, but were on the decline before the shots (not eradicated, but declined at great rates. I know some people shoot down the sanitation argument, but surely indoor plumbing and antibiotics were phenomenal in changing our lives. It’s hard for the average student today to realize doctors used to be doing autopsies and run up to deliver a child….and when hand washing was introduced I believe the physician was fired).

        Ya’ know I disagree with you on this topic, but I admire your voracity. You are probably a very good vet because you certainly stick with something once you start. It’s a nice quality to stand by what you believe in.

        • DVM

          >>I understand if a mother has the real whooping cough (which the people who have studied immunology should be able to come in share about the different types of antibodies with pertussis) she passes the resistance off for up to a year and her infant shouldn’t get whooping cough.>>

          No, because an infant’s passively acquired immunity (from its mother) wanes as its own immune system develops. There’s a critical gap in coverage, at which point the infant may be vaccinated (if appropriate) or rely upon herd immunity (as is the case for pertussis).

          >>What a doctor said was that the shot passes one antibody that doesn’t protect your future children, but the real disease does.>>

          Actually, if the whooping cough is similar to kennel cough in dogs (they’re both caused by Bordetella spp.), the “real disease” doesn’t confer lasting protection, either.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Alice previously asked: >>Why didn’t you take a course on understanding how to talk to the animals?>>

    DVM: Animal communication? It’s garbage. [end quote]

    Alice: I was being facetious…..but it could be quite helpful when posting online.

    Alice previously asked: >>No animal psychiatry?

    DVM: The veterinary equivalent is the specialty known as Behavior. Very helpful in dealing with all species, including humans. [end quote]

    Alice: Agreed….. in an effort to work another “ology” into the conversation to be more precise it would include psychology. Hmmm…….do you think the unvaccinated act weird?

    Alice: >>Wonder if James Herriott had to be so well-rounded to understand his clients, actually, one wonders if he could have been a vet at all these days.>>

    DVM: James Herriot’s books, while entertaining, and based on his experiences as a veterinarian, were fictional. That’s why real veterinarians do NOT love the character of James Herriot (even though most of us have read his books).[end quote]

    Alice: They were more like a historical type of fiction that is based upon truth. In interviews he said much of it was autobiographical, but he did switch names, etc., so many of the events happened and the people existed.

    Alice previously said: >>It wouldn’t be my pick, but in context I am thinking if Helen wrote about her tale of woe>>

    DVM: Actually, I was referring to the novel Ulysses, by James Joyce, the great Irish writer. I’m fairly certain there’s no “Helen” in Joyce’s Ulysses, but feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. [end quote]

    Alice: I am more concerned that people read the classics. I am a big fan of a Classical Education, and think it’s vital that people read them (particularly, teens because the vocabulary is so much more in-depth so it helps with the SAT and college. Most are not read for entertainment, but to teach analytical thinking for a good educational foundation).

    This sounds like a wonderful, old book to check out. So, you recommend it…..with or without the notable Helen of Troy (was she renamed or recreated in this book)?

    Alice previously said: >>Did immunologists find a cure for The Black Plague yet? Imagine if that one comes back?>>

    DVM: The “black” plague never left. It’s a bacterial infection most frequently carried by fleas that feed on rodents, treated with antibiotics. A few cases occur annually in the U.S., usually in the Southwest. In its aerosolized form, it’s a potential bioterrorism agent.

    Alice: This is true, except officially they say it’s eradicated in the US. Which is a bit confusing when people still die from the bubonic plague. Time magazine did a story on this because of the terrorism scare over this and smallpox (I think Time covered this because it involved a daycare worker who died. Really scary stuff when they work with kids whose immune systems are already compromised by all those shots).

    Alice previously said: >>From the stats it’s pretty clear more kids are injured each year>>

    DVM: To what statistics are you referring? [end quote]

    Alice: Well, we have about one in one-hundred children now diagnosed with autism. I know you don’t think the shots had anything to do with this, but if you see my other posts I think the medical community has a lot of resources they aren’t using to crack this case.

    We will never know the amount of learning disabled. I shared the story about the convulsion and loss of reading ability with my friend’s child. These stories are pretty common, but I think doctors are reluctant to label them what they are for fear that people will stop vaccinating. I think this is wrong and think disclosure is the way to go.

    As a quick example…..if ten children die from whooping cough, more than that are injured (or die) from the vaccine. Tons of the cases get dismissed, but that doesn’t completely discount them. Doctors make loads of mistakes and get off with most of them, so it’s not conclusive just because something was dismissed.

    I am on a tiny laptop and have trouble viewing full screens, so here is a website with some government stats because the fund goes broke and many can never get compensation:
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm#claims_filed

    Alice previously said: >>(just read about the fund they force each shot receiver contribute to. The claims far exceed the funding, that’s why people go to court).>>

    DVM: So, if there were no required contribution to this fund, the number of lawsuits would decrease(?) [end quote]

    Alice: To my knowledge the fund is there to decrease lawsuits. It used to be something like a dollar per shot went into the fund (but the fund goes broke and they need to put more money into it). With parent’s signing waivers that protect the doctor and pharmaceuticals the government made a fund to help parents.

    DVM: In response to your comment about your cousin, here is an anecdote from my practice:

    A client made an appointment for routine vaccinations for her pet. That morning, she called to re-schedule because she had to drive her mother to a doctor’s appointment. Not a problem – certainly, a valid reason to re-schedule. That evening, she paged me because her pet was lethargic and vomiting. Her pet was admitted to the emergency hospital, required several days of IV fluid support and narrowly escaped an exploratory laparotomy. The cause of her pet’s illness is still undetermined.

    Keep in mind I had NOT vaccinated her pet. [end quote]

    Alice: I think I already shared my cousin was given the MMR, and when he was sent to the children’s hospital by life flight the pediatrician came to his bed and fell apart. The poor woman was so distraught she literally threw herself on the bed and cried. They had to remove life support from the child. His parents tried to sue, but there was a waiver that had been signed. They hated the pediatrician, but I believe she did what she truly had been taught was the right thing. She just didn’t know that one of her patients would react and die from the shot. And this is why it’s important to find out why some kids have a predisposition to reacting to the shot.

    Alice previously said: >>(my friend’s husband got that bacterial strep at a pool, or hot tub)>>

    DVM: Which strain of “strep” (all “strep” is bacterial)? [end quote]

    Alice: Flesh eating bacteria. Sorta like microbiological zombies! Facetious alert!

    Alice previously said: >>how you can eat meat

    DVM: I’d never eat uncooked meat. Would you? [end quote]

    Alice: I eat almost no meat, the stuff scares me. I am not against eating meat, just think it should be in small quantities and organic…preferably home grown. Fish is healthy, but you need to be selective there too.

    Alice previously said: >>go to the dentist

    DVM: dentist washes her hands, wears gloves and a mask, and is vaccinated. I asked. [end quote]

    Alice: Some think the rate of thyroid cancer is increasing from dental xrays. Nowadays, many people are asking for the cuff and the apron because of this (I realize this is denied, but so are a lot of things). If she is wearing a mask and gloves why do you care about being vaccinated when you treat animals and you have no idea if their owners are vaccinated. Or do you ask all your paying clients too? Do you ask every cashier at the mall, do you go to the county fair, the doctor’s office, the movies, ride in elevators, go to restaurants and use public bathrooms?

    I ask doctors if they care about it and they emphatically say, “No!” They aren’t treating us like lepers and even shake our bare hands. Imagine? The horror of such an indignity. And they even type on the computer after shaking our hands and leave those germs for the medical assistant.

    Alice previously said: >>you have more of a chance of getting in an accident on the road, than you do getting sick from one of my very healthy kids>>

    DVM: As I have no plans to visit Ohio anytime soon, that’s probably true.[end quote]

    Alice: LOL What? You don’t want to visit? I’m crushed! Say it isn’t so. Actually, the road trip here would be more dangerous than an actual visit. I am shocked you can hold a conversation with your patient’s owners considering some diseases are airborne.

    Alice previously asked: >>Were they asthmatic?

    DVM: childhood friend died of encephalitis. Basically, the chicken pox virus invaded her brain. [end quote]

    Alice: So you don’t think early intervention would have helped?

    Alice previously said: >>many medical employers are still using the titer to test for antibodies and it’s worked for them.>>

    DVM: “The titer” for what disease(s)? This subject is much more complex than: high titer = protected. [end quote]

    Alice: I think overall the titer is reliable (I was told it’s very reliable, but I certainly don’t have firsthand information on this…….my info comes from doctors).

  • DVM

    >>do you think the unvaccinated act weird?

    Speaking as one who has seen unvaccinated patients die from preventable diseases, I think deciding not to vaccinate is very weird, and not smart.

    >>In interviews he said much of it was autobiographical, but he did switch names, etc., so many of the events happened and the people existed.>>

    The author of the James Herriot books was broke and depressed for much of his life. I’ve read interviews with his son.

    >>Most are not read for entertainment

    What a shame. I read because I like to read, and I read great books written by quality writers because it’s more enjoyable than reading poorly written books.

    >>This sounds like a wonderful, old book to check out. So, you recommend it…..with or without the notable Helen of Troy (was she renamed or recreated in this book)?>>

    Ulysses is considered to be one of the greatest novels of all time. Because its construction is complex and it is written using stream of consciousness technique, Ulysses is somewhat impenetrable without commentary. Kind of like attempting to discuss vaccination without a basic understanding of immunology. But you can try it.

    >>officially they say it’s eradicated in the US.

    Not according to the CDC, and it will be impossible to eradicate entirely without eliminating all fleas that feed on rodents.

    >>we have about one in one-hundred children now diagnosed with autism. I know you don’t think the shots had anything to do with this>>

    Though I think there are multiple causes of autism, that’s true, I don’t think vaccines are involved. I do think maternal and paternal age are involved, though the paternal effect is seen only when the mother is younger than 30. I think vasectomies and tubal ligations for all people over the age of 30 would immediately lower the rate of autism.

    >>Flesh eating bacteria.

    Necrotizing fasciitis? There’s no vaccine for that particular strain of strep.

    >>many people are asking for the cuff and the apron because of this (I realize this is denied, but so are a lot of things).>>

    In veterinary school, I was taught that lead protection is mandatory for me, my workers and certainly any clients present when we’re shooting x-rays. No one has to ask.

    >>why do you care about being vaccinated when you treat animals and you have no idea if their owners are vaccinated.>>

    Because I treat animals; I’m not in close contact with their owners. My dentist works around my face and inside my mouth.

    >>They aren’t treating us like lepers and even shake our bare hands.>>

    So, your physicians go from you then home to their children without washing their hands and removing their white coats or scrubs?

    >>they even type on the computer after shaking our hands and leave those germs for the medical assistant.>>

    That is foolish, and a huge problem in health care. Doctors are the worst at hand-washing precautions (veterinarians aren’t any better). See the article posted on this site just a few days ago about hand-washing.

    >>I am shocked you can hold a conversation with your patient’s owners considering some diseases are airborne.>>

    I encourage owners with respiratory illness to reschedule appointments unless the animal is ill or injured.

    >>So you don’t think early intervention would have helped?

    Considering my childhood playmate was apparently recovering from chicken pox and went from lethargic to convulsing within minutes, I’m not sure what you mean by “early intervention”.

    >>I think overall the titer is reliable (I was told it’s very reliable, but I certainly don’t have firsthand information on this…….my info comes from doctors).>>

    We’ve gone round and round here, and it’s pointless for me to attempt to explain yet again why this is not exactly true.

    • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

      Alice previously said:>>do you think the unvaccinated act weird?

      DVM: Speaking as one who has seen unvaccinated patients die from preventable diseases, I think deciding not to vaccinate is very weird, and not smart. [end quote]

      Alice: Animal species? I am sure you do things to your animal patients you wouldn’t treat your own family with. Animals get rabies vaccinations, worm prevention, flea protection. It’s not a good comparison, but I don’t mind being labeled “weird” or “stupid” if it saves children’s lives.

      Alice previously said: >>In interviews he said much of it was autobiographical, but he did switch names, etc., so many of the events happened and the people existed.>>

      DVM: The author of the James Herriot books was broke and depressed for much of his life. I’ve read interviews with his son. [end quote]

      Alice: Most good writers write from torment of some kind (real or imagined). It’s something I think about in today’s world with all the medications out there. We will lose those morbid lows, but lose the splendid ecstasy of joy or happiness when we are in neutral. We gain from their pain, and hopefully, learn from it. Which really ties in well with this conversation because it’s the bottomline here……..we are each in our own way trying to avoid the pain of our child dying.

      Alice previously shared: >>Most are not read for entertainment

      DVM: What a shame. I read because I like to read, and I read great books written by quality writers because it’s more enjoyable than reading poorly written books. [end quote]

      Alice: I think as we age we appreciate the books all the more. I adore CS Lewis, but I seriously doubt as a teenager I could have handled Mere Christianity. Even today I often read a few pages and yawn, then hit upon a type of plush prose that causes you to stop reading……followed by deeply, introspective thoughts. Young adults have usually not experienced pain in their lives, so often Jane Austen is preferred to let’s say, The Scarlet Letter or Uncle Tom’s Cabin (I would not have yearned to read these books years ago myself, yet now I can hardly stop thinking about them when I read. The range of emotions they evoke are from a storebank of experience…yet as a teen I seriously doubt I could have completely understood them on a higher level). I am still not sure I find the entertainment value in the some of the classics. An exception was Chesterton who has one of the most delightful romps I read this year (The Man Who Was Thursday was brilliant. A metaphorical meteorite).

      Alice previously said: >>This sounds like a wonderful, old book to check out. So, you recommend it…..with or without the notable Helen of Troy (was she renamed or recreated in this book)?>>

      DVM: is considered to be one of the greatest novels of all time. Because its construction is complex and it is written using stream of consciousness technique, Ulysses is somewhat impenetrable without commentary. Kind of like attempting to discuss vaccination without a basic understanding of immunology. But you can try it.

      Alice: Nah, it sounds way too over my pea brain…..although, I am very pleased you have an adventurous side and aren’t as black and white as you appear to be in writing.

      Alice previously said: >>officially they say it’s eradicated in the US.

      DVM: Not according to the CDC, and it will be impossible to eradicate entirely without eliminating all fleas that feed on rodents.[end quote]

      Alice: Well, that’s what I shared is confusing. They say it’s eradicated, yet ten people a year die from it. Must be my foolish understanding of the word “eradicated”. tisk tisk

      Alice previously said: >>we have about one in one-hundred children now diagnosed with autism. I know you don’t think the shots had anything to do with this>>

      DVM: Though I think there are multiple causes of autism, that’s true, I don’t think vaccines are involved. I do think maternal and paternal age are involved, though the paternal effect is seen only when the mother is younger than 30. I think vasectomies and tubal ligations for all people over the age of 30 would immediately lower the rate of autism. [end quote]

      Alice: So you are a geneticists now! :) Wow…….I didn’t know they allowed internet access in China. You probably know vasectomies lead to a higher rate of prostrate cancer and tubals lead can lead to early menopause?

      What a dramatic, far-fetched answer that would be. I would have three less children, and although two have had cancer they are real assets to society and our family (yeah, one is immunized so you can cross him off your “to be rounded up” list).

      You are, obviously, not a libertarian? And, no, before you waste time typing I am not a Ron Pauler. I just want to make sure you aren’t considering running for political office.

      Is there a reason you don’t post under your real name? I haven’t seen anything here that would get you in trouble, so it’s just something of a curious nature.

      Alice previously said: >>many people are asking for the cuff and the apron because of this (I realize this is denied, but so are a lot of things).>>

      DVM: veterinary school, I was taught that lead protection is mandatory for me, my workers and certainly any clients present when we’re shooting x-rays. No one has to ask. [end quote]

      Alice: In Ohio you have to ask at most places (you know how backward some of those Ohians can be…….). The dental hygienist recently wondered aloud why so many people are now asking for the cuff. Why does she make them ask? Just make it procedure.

      Alice previously said: >>why do you care about being vaccinated when you treat animals and you have no idea if their owners are vaccinated.>>

      DVM: Because I treat animals; I’m not in close contact with their owners. My dentist works around my face and inside my mouth.

      Alice: Hmmm……..when I go to the vet I speak to her in a very tiny office, and she pets my animals, and is probably within two feet of my face. Must be a guy thing……….are you OCD? :)

      Alice previously said: >>They aren’t treating us like lepers and even shake our bare hands.>>

      DVM: So, your physicians go from you then home to their children without washing their hands and removing their white coats or scrubs?

      Alice: My physicians don’t always wear white coats. Our main doctor is an ENT/plastic surgeon (and his tie is tucked into his suit and he doesn’t lean over us). He washes his hands constantly, and would be fired if he didn’t. The standards are impeccable, but his brilliant mind thinks things through. His caution was that we can’t travel worldwide if you aren’t immunized. When we are able to travel we will think about it, because at this point it’s just the UK and Spain. So, stay away from those countries if you don’t want to run into us. Oh yes, the Canary Islands to.

      Alice previously said: >>they even type on the computer after shaking our hands and leave those germs for the medical assistant.>>

      DVM: That is foolish, and a huge problem in health care. Doctors are the worst at hand-washing precautions (veterinarians aren’t any better). See the article posted on this site just a few days ago about hand-washing.

      Alice: I read it, but there are airborne particles that are a problem too. I am at one of the top five hospitals in the land and they wash their hands like crazy, and have hand sanitizer at every elevator entrance and restroom. As long as the doctor and medical assistant don’t rub their eyes or nose after using the keyboard they should be fine if they sanitize right after touching the keyboard. So far we have only killed three medical assistants and one doctor. Not bad odds really….considering……….

      Alice previously said: >>I am shocked you can hold a conversation with your patient’s owners considering some diseases are airborne.>>

      DVM said: I encourage owners with respiratory illness to reschedule appointments unless the animal is ill or injured.

      Alice: That’s a good precaution, but there is more to it than that. If your paranoia was played out in your office with the tenacity it is here you would lose paying clientele. I don’t believe you are as paranoid in person as you are here. You are downright dogmatically immovable.

      Alice previously said: >>So you don’t think early intervention would have helped?

      DVM: Considering my childhood playmate was apparently recovering from chicken pox and went from lethargic to convulsing within minutes, I’m not sure what you mean by “early intervention”.

      Alice: Because childhood illnesses are so rare compared to long ago many doctors have never seen real cases, and miss diagnoses. That’s what happened with H1N1 where doctors unwittingly killed some children because they just didn’t understand how the disease turned into a secondary infection that hurt the lung function. They just didn’t realize what they were up against and sent parents home with sick children, and some parents came back begging for help. Parents knew something was wrong, but because doctors often get dogmatic, like you, they miss problems that aren’t widespread. Some doctors have to travel elsewhere to see a disease, and some better start listening to their patients. Listening saves lives too.

      I believe early intervention saves lives. But doctors are taught not to look for zebras, and as much as I understand that, it does cost lives.

      Alice previously said: >>I think overall the titer is reliable (I was told it’s very reliable, but I certainly don’t have firsthand information on this…….my info comes from doctors).>>

      DVN: We’ve gone round and round here, and it’s pointless for me to attempt to explain yet again why this is not exactly true.

      Alice: No test is infallible, but it is a good test for those who want to know if their family really has the antibodies. To sit and proclaim it may not be 100% or whatever is really a cop-out. Get the test and at least see what it says. I am actually surprised you haven’t had genetic testing done on your family….considering how fearful you are of diseases. Maybe you have.

  • DVM

    >>I am sure you do things to your animal patients you wouldn’t treat your own family with. Animals get rabies vaccinations, worm prevention, flea protection.>>

    Well, I’ve been vaccinated for rabies. Physicians treat humans for worm infestation when necessary, sometimes using the same drugs (praziquantal, for example). So far I’ve had no need to treat anyone in my household for fleas, but I think physicians see lice (head and body) more frequently than do veterinarians.

    >>that’s what I shared is confusing. They say it’s eradicated, yet ten people a year die from it. Must be my foolish understanding of the word “eradicated”.>>

    I suspect that the word “eradicated” is meant to be used in combination with a qualifier, such as “in the general population”.

    >>You probably know vasectomies lead to a higher rate of prostrate cancer and tubals lead can lead to early menopause?>>

    Baloney, and hogwash. But complete abstinence after the age of 30 would result in a similar drop in the incidence of autism.

    There’s a steady increase in the number of autistic children born when one controls for the age of the father and looks at advancing maternal age: 41 yo mother > 40 yo mother > 39 yo mother. A similar effect is seen for advanced paternal age when the mother is under the age of 30. Nifty piece of epidemiology work, still in progress.

    >>Is there a reason you don’t post under your real name?

    I have an unlisted phone number and a P.O. box, too.

    >>when I go to the vet I speak to her in a very tiny office, and she pets my animals, and is probably within two feet of my face.>>

    Your veterinarian doesn’t pet you, though.

    >>Must be a guy thing……….are you OCD?

    No, and I’m not a guy, either.

    >>His caution was that we can’t travel worldwide if you aren’t immunized.>>

    He’s correct, but the situation in the U.S. is currently in transition, thanks to the marked increase in susceptible (unvaccinated) people in the general population.

    >>You are downright dogmatically immovable.

    I am consistent.

    >>Because childhood illnesses are so rare compared to long ago many doctors have never seen real cases, and miss diagnoses.>>

    My childhood friend died in the 1970s. There were plenty of cases of chicken pox back then. No one “missed” the diagnosis. There was no vaccine available, she contracted chicken pox, and she died from chicken pox encephalitis. That’s what happened before vaccines became widely available: many more people died of preventable diseases.

    • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

      Alice previously said: >>I am sure you do things to your animal patients you wouldn’t treat your own family with. Animals get rabies vaccinations, worm prevention, flea protection.>>

      DVM: Well, I’ve been vaccinated for rabies. Physicians treat humans for worm infestation when necessary, sometimes using the same drugs (praziquantal, for example). So far I’ve had no need to treat anyone in my household for fleas, but I think physicians see lice (head and body) more frequently than do veterinarians. [end quote]

      Alice: What no immunization for head lice or stupid people? Do your children go to school? How can you stand the thought of them getting head lice, or hanging out with the unimmunized? They are in the schools because we still have the liberty of exemptions. Thankfully, we still regard the Constitution in this country despite people who think trampling on personal liberties doesn’t matter. Maybe we should kill off everyone you disagree with? :)

      Alice: >>>>You probably know vasectomies lead to a higher rate of prostrate cancer and tubals lead can lead to early menopause?>>

      DVM: Baloney, and hogwash. But complete abstinence after the age of 30 would result in a similar drop in the incidence of autism.

      There’s a steady increase in the number of autistic children born when one controls for the age of the father and looks at advancing maternal age: 41 yo mother > 40 yo mother > 39 yo mother. A similar effect is seen for advanced paternal age when the mother is under the age of 30. Nifty piece of epidemiology work, still in progress. [end quote]

      Alice: Again you deny what is the truth. Look it up before labeling others. There is a site dedicated to medical literature about the problems of sterilization. Some get it reversed and paid for because of the medical problems.

      Nifty? Some stats? Surely, you aren’t recommending abstinence as an answer? Why don’t we work realistically and talk about something that mankind can actually do. Older moms have older eggs……so what? The reality is that there are risks involved and science can help these healthy children not to become victims, and no sex is not an answer at all. Older moms have Downie babies to….so what? Of course, they are an endangered species now. We want one, and believe them to be a real gift to a family. But autism is preventable and sterilization is not the answer.

      Wow…..this sounds Orwellish.

      Alice previously said: >>Is there a reason you don’t post under your real name?

      DVM: I have an unlisted phone number and a P.O. box, too. [end quote]

      Alice: But that’s an added detail, not an answer.

      Alice previously said: >>when I go to the vet I speak to her in a very tiny office, and she pets my animals, and is probably within two feet of my face.>>

      DVM: Your veterinarian doesn’t pet you, though. [end quote]

      Alice: I was being polite……..now why would I tell secrets like that? Don’t all vets offer this service? :) Purrr!

      Alice previously said: >>Must be a guy thing……….are you OCD?

      DVM: No, and I’m not a guy, either.

      Alice: But do you have OCD?

      Alice previously said: >>His caution was that we can’t travel worldwide if you aren’t immunized.>>

      DVM: He’s correct, but the situation in the U.S. is currently in transition, thanks to the marked increase in susceptible (unvaccinated) people in the general population. [end quote]

      Alice: Of course he is correct, he is brilliant and doesn’t mind that we didn’t vaccinate. He’s a thinker, not a conspiracy theorist who tries to paint a whole group of people as repugnant. He has a grip on the true debate. Most good doctors can think outside-the-box and are open to communicating with patients. If he is reading this he will be getting a good dose of eye-rolling, then smiles at my responses. I have great relationships with our doctors and hold this particular doctor in high-esteem.

      Alice previously said: >>You are downright dogmatically immovable.

      DVM: I am consistent.[end quote]

      Alice: Yes, I have noticed you are consistently dogmatic on an issue, but not open to the truth, so that throws consistency out the window. The truth is more important than agendas, because closed-mindedness, and this type of narrow thinking hurts the medical community and people.

      Alice previously said: >>Because childhood illnesses are so rare compared to long ago many doctors have never seen real cases, and miss diagnoses.>>

      DVM: My childhood friend died in the 1970s. There were plenty of cases of chicken pox back then. No one “missed” the diagnosis. There was no vaccine available, she contracted chicken pox, and she died from chicken pox encephalitis. That’s what happened before vaccines became widely available: many more people died of preventable diseases. [end quote]

      Alice: If doctors treat early this can usually be prevented. The vaccine may or may not have saved your friend. You really don’t know, and consistently misread in an effort to be right, instead of searching for the truth. And truth is if it was that long ago you don’t really know, but keep trying to make cases to prove your point. You seem to worship at the alter of your own viewpoint.

      • DVM

        >>hanging out with the unimmunized? They are in the schools because we still have the liberty of exemptions.>>

        As I mentioned previously, your rights stop at the point where they infringe upon mine. Unvaccinated children endanger those who truly cannot be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons. Not every state allows “exemptions” because attending public school is a privilege, not a right. In the aftermath of the current disease outbreaks, I forsee re-evaluation and drastic curtailing of current “exemption” policies.

        >>Look it up before labeling others. There is a site dedicated to medical literature about the problems of sterilization.>>

        I have. It’s baloney, and I’ve already discussed why it’s necessary to evaluate every scientific paper published with a critical eye.

        >>Some get it reversed and paid for because of the medical problems.>>

        The vast majority of those who reverse sterilization procedures seem to go on to attempt to conceive again. This indicates they were unhappy with their original decision to seek permanent birth control. I’m sure some truly believe the surgery caused actual damage, because that would be preferable to admitting one made a poor decision. As for those who truly have symptoms of mild to moderate abdominal pain, adhesions can develop subsequent to any abdominal surgery, laparoscopic or not, in any species.

        >>Some stats?

        Link Between Advanced Maternal Age and Autism Confirmed: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100208102411.htm

        Just a summary, but you’ll get the idea. The original article was published in the journal Autism Research.

        >>Surely, you aren’t recommending abstinence as an answer?>>

        If you’re truly interested in decreasing the number of autistic children born and believe the risks of permanent sterilization are unacceptable, why yes, I am advocating abstinence, for both men and women over the age of 30.

        >>Why don’t we work realistically and talk about something that mankind can actually do. Older moms have older eggs……so what?>>

        Actually, the researchers working on the study I cited are trying to figure out the biological causes of autism: what is different about older mothers and fathers, in addition to age?

        In the meantime, those who are truly interested in decreasing the number of autistic children born should simply stop having children after the age of 30.

        >>science can help these healthy children not to become victims>>

        Victims of what?

        >>no sex is not an answer at all

        Abstinence is an effective, environmentally friendly, perfectly safe method of birth control. And abstinence after the age of 30 would result in a drop in the number of autistic children born.

        >>Older moms have Downie babies to….so what? Of course, they are an endangered species now. We want one, and believe them to be a real gift to a family.>>

        Adoption and foster parenting of Downs kids is certainly an option if you fail to achieve your goal.

        Since you are over the age of 30 and apparently intend to attempt to conceive, would you also consider an autistic child “a real gift to the family”? A 40yo woman’s risk of having an autistic child is 50% higher vs. the risk to a child born to a 25-29yo woman.

        >>But autism is preventable and sterilization is not the answer.>>

        A significant number of cases of autism could be prevented by halting reproduction by parents over the age of 30. Sterilization shouldn’t be mandatory, as abstinence is obviously a superior method of birth control.

        >>But do you have OCD?

        No, I do not have OCD.

        >>I have noticed you are consistently dogmatic on an issue, but not open to the truth, so that throws consistency out the window.>>

        When you manage to cite some truth, I’ll be open to it.

        >>The truth is more important than agendas, because closed-mindedness, and this type of narrow thinking hurts the medical community and people.>>

        Excellent. Keep this in mind when you read that article on advanced maternal age and autism.

        >>If doctors treat early this can usually be prevented.

        The chicken pox encephalitis that killed my childhood friend was somewhat similar to EEE or West Nile encephalitis (you’ve probably heard about cases on the news). Keep in mind she died in the 1970s, before antiviral drugs were widely utilized.

        >>The vaccine may or may not have saved your friend.

        If my friend had been vaccinated for chicken pox, she may have avoided contracting the disease. But the chicken pox vaccine wasn’t available in the 1970s.

        >>You seem to worship at the alter of your own viewpoint.

        No, I simply don’t share your beliefs.

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Hi! The storm wiped out my internet access, but I am trying to use a neighbor’s and I lose the post when I try to submit it (sorry if this is a duplicate). I will answer more tomorrow, but I had a few questions. My first thoughts when reading your post were about basic human and reproductive rights, and utopias. I just need some more clarity to make sure I grasp the magnitude of what you are suggesting.

    Do you think autism is a birth defect?

    Some say fertility drugs and treatment are a cause of autism. I think maybe older moms are more likely to vaccinate.

    I, also, don’t think abstinence is a realistic answer. Intimacy is good for your health, and if you are blessed with children through this they are a blessing also (whether the mother is old or young it’s worth the risk).

    I think science offers us answers, and it’s not in preventing children in older moms, because young moms have children with autism.

    Actually, the repercussions of your suggestion would be worse than the autism we will surely….eventually…..have a better grip on preventing. What if we prevent some future scientists from being born who may have the ability to prevent autism?

  • Ron

    I completely agree that people who see immunizations as a threat are using illogic, rumor and non-critical thinking in their decisions and that along with their ignorance is a growing culture of selfishness and over protectiveness of children. However, I think the medical community can learn a little about themselves here. Why are more and more people so skeptical? Could all those rushed visits after hours of waiting, lack of a real response to questions, lack of eye contact while filling out the chart… be a factor in people not believing or trusting doctors? Physician, organize thyself.

    • DVM

      >>I think the medical community can learn a little about themselves here. Why are more and more people so skeptical? Could all those rushed visits after hours of waiting, lack of a real response to questions, lack of eye contact while filling out the chart… be a factor in people not believing or trusting doctors? Physician, organize thyself.>>

      Though I’m a veterinarian, I agree with you, and I think there’s more involved. Unfortunately, the world has changed; I’m no James Herriot, just as you probably aren’t Marcus Welby. It’s hard to find a balance.

  • DVM

    >>Do you think autism is a birth defect?

    The short answer is “yes”.

    Advanced maternal age is known to increase the risk of chromosomal aberrations and congenital anomalies. There is some evidence that older mothers are more likely to develop autoantibodies to fetal brain proteins. If environmental chemicals are a factor, older mothers would have accumulated higher levels (all other factors being equal). So yes, I do think research will eventually prove autism is a birth defect, though it is probably caused by multiple chromosomal defects – more like cystic fibrosis than Down syndrome. Based on the epidemiology of autism cases (much more common in boys) I’d be hunting for X-chromosome defect(s), but I’m not a geneticist.

    >>Some say fertility drugs and treatment are a cause of autism.>>

    Yes, that’s an angle researchers are examining.

    >>I think maybe older moms are more likely to vaccinate.

    Really. So, you said one of your children was vaccinated – was that one of your older children, or one of your younger children?

    In general, younger mothers are more likely to do whatever a physician advises without question.

    >>I, also, don’t think abstinence is a realistic answer. Intimacy is good for your health>>

    The point is not to reproduce after the age of 30 if one wishes to decrease the probability of having an autistic child. Abstinence, sterilization, non-procreative sexual activity and abortion are all means to achieve this end. I surmised that abstinence might be the most palatable option to you, as I understand religious objections to both non-procreative sexual activity and abortion.

    >>I think science offers us answers, and it’s not in preventing children in older moms>>

    Really. Want to re-think that? From one of your earlier posts:

    Alice: “We know some kids have a predisposition to damage from the MMR shot. Something is causing harm to a certain segment of kids who should not have received the shot. At this point we can’t preview who will get harmed, so moms decide they just can’t take the risk. It feels too risky to them.”

    Compare your statement with this statement by Irva Hertz-Picciotto from UC Davis, one of the researchers currently examining the relationship between advanced maternal (and paternal) age: “We still need to out what it is about older parents that puts their children at greater risk for autism and other adverse outcomes, so that we can begin to design interventions.”

    If the aim of many who reject vaccines is to prevent many cases of autism, why not also reject late child-bearing, which would definitely prevent many cases of autism?

    Is is possible that vaccine rejectors have another, hidden agenda, of which they may not necessarily be aware?

    >>because young moms have children with autism

    This is why researchers are trying to determine WHAT about older mothers, other than age, causes autism.

  • Alice

    Hi! Still no internet, but I think this is such an interesting topic. I am on my Droid so I won’t type much because I can barely see this site.

    I am pro life so on one hand I understand your abstinence stance to prevent children, rather than create then annihilate. I do think like Downs they can almost predict, yet I struggle with the birth defect label because some kids were normal until the shot.

    I am definetely not a typical mom…so my personal life of homeschooling, not vaccinating is the exception…but both decisions show an ultra carefulness, possibly over protective side of my decisions. I go to great extremes not to hurt others, and do feel bad about my posts on Friday. I apolgize to Molly, you, the Doc, and Amy for my outbursts (it was a bad day thinking about cancer spreading in my child’s body, more surgeries, but, ultimately, I am without excuse….I was rude. Sorry!)

    • DVM

      >>I do think like Downs they can almost predict…

      I think it’s only a matter of time before there will be a test(s) to “predict” autism.

      >>yet I struggle with the birth defect label because some kids were normal until the shot.>>

      Huntington’s Disease is a birth defect, too. Huntington’s sufferers inherit a defective gene, just like Down Syndrome kids and, very probably, autistic kids. The symptoms of Down syndrome are evident at birth, but the most common age of onset of symptoms for Huntington’s is 30-50 y.o. adults. I think it’s highly likely we’ll discover autism is a birth defect and symptoms of autism first occur most commonly in toddlers.

      Before a genetic test became available, it was not unusual for physicians to mistake the early stages of Huntington’s for alcoholism. Alcohol abuse is a natural response to believing one is losing one’s mind, but drinking excessively does not cause Huntington’s disease. Similarly, I think we’ll discover the timing of childhood vaccination schedules correlates with the average age of onset of autism, but vaccines do not cause autism.

  • Alice

    Hi! I am still without internet, so as much as I enjoy this Droid, the small keyboard and screen are driving me batty. And to think I thought this phone would help me to rule the world…humpf!:)

    I am back to reading books and saw a quote that reminded me about the beginning of this conversation when I argued for common sense. I am reading The Decision Tree but feeling like my options are narrow. The chapter is about DNA plus environment. I believe The Post or The Times did an article about 12 markers they believe can lead to autism. Without internet at home I can’t spend the time searching for a link right now, and I realize there are no one-size fits all about this topic.

    The co-founder od DNA, Dr. Watson, said this at a 2008 conference: “I think we should use common sense and get good information which can help most people. Our aim should be to help the damned, and we should un-damn them.” There is more, but now my battery is low. As 8 shared it is environment and DNA .

  • http://www.twitter.com/alicearobertson Alice

    Hi! I know this thread is dead (who was praying my internet would go down? It did! For almost six days……but I refueled! :) )

    I am reading books by doctors trying to find some type of philosophical peace before my daughter’s operation (I am reading Complications by Atul Gawande, and finding myself cringing, comforted, and well……..just bloody well petrified! I am giving the book to our doctor……..if I leave it in the waiting room he may lose some patients who would run out of the place in terror!)

    Anyhoo……….I was cleaning out the avalanche of mail I received and found this Imus interview with Andrew Wakefield. I know his name was tossed into the this arena, so it was intriguing to me when I saw it. I have not read his writings, but found this interview interesting. Surely, we want the truth more than an agenda……..and who knows that better than doctors? Doctors who often learn things from medical textbooks that they find is useless or faulty once the real experience is on the table.

    So, for those who are want to at least understand what he is saying (his own words seem so much different from the headlines that came through my inbox weeks ago). I am reading Dr. Amen’s book (he is psychiatrist) on the brain and healing yourself, and it’s interesting. I don’t think he relates the shot to autism, but I need more time to re-read, and I was awestruck that he gave a good summation of how the immune system works. Imagine that? I learned something………I am thinking I should send gift copies to a few people on this board :)

    Anyhoo………what I am looking for is a critique on this interview to show me where Wakefield is supposedly such a bozo who can’t read medical science……..but I’ll bet he could sum up the immune system quickly! And please use his own words. I really do want the truth, and his warning about going beyond what your doctor says is quite good. The bestselling authors, doctors Gawande and Groopman are very clear about that. Surely, no one here wants to label a caring doctor as a looney if it’s just a difference of opinion? I just hope no one would turn this into a feast of the Imus family, who have given millions, and given of themselves to help children. You may be surprised by his explanations, and his imploring for safe vaccines. Could someone tell me what in the world this doctor stands to gain by this?

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/07/transcription-of-dr-andrew-wakefield-author-of-callous-disregard-on-imus-in-the-morning.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e20134852d28b9970c

    [snip]No one though has apparently proven a link .. and .. no one has disproven one either .. which is as important. [snip]
    DR: W: Well, what we did, Don, was…we did our job. As physicians we listened to parents of damaged children, we listened to parents who had been previously ignored by the medical profession, largely … kids who had received the vaccine, had been previously normal, who had regressed into autism .. and .. developed bowel problems. We took this bowel problem seriously and we discovered a new bowel disease .. thanks to the parents .. we then took the vaccine issue very seriously and investigated that as we should have done .. and .. I’m afraid … calling into question the safety of vaccines is like killing the sacred cow. And .. that caused us all kinds of problems.
    [snip]
    DR. W: Well, Don, what I’m trying to put forward is a “safety first” vaccine agenda. Safety first .. who could argue with that? Putting safety as the priority when you’re vaccinating healthy children worldwide. For the most important thing, Don, even though I don’t have the evidence scientifically .. the U.S. Vaccine Court .. has ruled since 1991 that vaccines can cause autism. They have been settling cases in the country of vaccine induced autism since 1991. So, the government on the one hand is saying one thing –there is no link .. and .. on the other hand — is paying out for vaccine induced autism. And, that is deception. The American people need to know that .. and .. the American public, if there’s one message they need to take away from this is to “think critically about vaccines”. Do not take what your doctor says or what the CDC says as fact, get informed. Think critically about vaccines.

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