Legalizing marijuana, an opinion from a former JAMA editor

While I was still the editor of JAMA, I was in Boston in January, 1997, to do my regular teaching at Harvard. I dropped in to see my friend Jerry Kassirer, the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine. Little did I know that Jerry was in the midst of a firestorm of protest for his just-published editorial called “Federal Foolishness and Marijuana.” Jerry told me that he received more response to that editorial than anything else he had ever written.

Six months later, at Brown University, David Lewis and 36 other distinguished physicians founded Physician Leadership for National Drug Policy [now Physicians and Lawyers for National Drug Policy] (www.plndp.org). PLNDP was begun to persuade the United States to deal with psychoactive drugs by applying scientific best evidence rather than the myths, lies, religion, and ideology our country had been using.

In 2005, I published a Webcast Video Editorial on Medscape, demanding that the U.S. government reclassify marijuana from a Schedule I drug. The response to that editorial was mostly supportive. Opinion was changing.

Fast forward to 2010. In this publication, more than 80% of some 1,800 (and counting) physicians in a current MedPage Today survey responded that marijuana should be reclassified from Schedule I. Great progress!

As a forensic pathologist, I know that tobacco and alcohol kill every day in most American cities, legally. To my knowledge, marijuana has never toxicologically killed any one.

There was that one student at UCLA who choked on a bolus of weed while trying to destroy the evidence when the cops broke in. And there may have been one man in the Netherlands who smoked multiple consecutive pipe loads of high-grade hash, successfully killing himself. It is true that if one takes marijuana leaves, seeds, and stems, cooks a soup, and shoots the “pot porridge,” one gets really sick, as we reported from LA County years ago. And, it is obvious that flying an airplane or driving a car while stoned is a very bad idea.

I don’t use grass myself and I don’t recommend it; but for patients with terminal HIV or cancer, if they find palliative relief from medical marijuana, why not?

As to the broader question of recreational use, regulation, and taxation, I suspect that there will be a lot of unintended consequences when that first American state takes those legal steps, probably fairly soon.

George Lundberg is a MedPage Today Editor-at-Large and former editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Originally published in MedPage Today. Visit MedPageToday.com for more health policy news.

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  • Max Rogers md

    Of all the critical issues we are facing today in our profession, this one is not high on my list. I don’t argue his points, merely their significance today.

  • Max

    Agreed. This really isn’t that important in medicine right now. Oh but the trucker driving 40 tons of moving steel at 65mph thinks its important. It’s harmless, doesn’t kill, and doesn’t cause cancer. If it’s that safe, everyone should be able to use it whenever they please. Even the surgeon in the OR. “Oh now wait a minute, we need some restriction on it”. We do? Why? We just determined it’s safe for use and doesn’t kill anyone. No restrictions at all if you want it legalized. None. All or nothing.

  • ninguem

    Fine with me, legalize it and tax it.

    It would be worth it, just to get rid of the people pestering me to sign off on “medical” marijuana.

  • Alice Robertson

    Hmmm……..to be consistant with this doctor”s thinking on hemp (using empathy while scoffing off morality, etc., and using a blindsided mocking of cases to build a skewed view for the reader that doesn’t give a completely balanced view)……….then if we use his reasoning maybe we can back the Hemlock Society too?

  • ninguem

    “……..there may have been one man in the Netherlands who smoked multiple consecutive pipe loads of high-grade hash, successfully killing himself……”

    Did they really find a lethal dose of THC? I’m impressed.

  • andrew

    So providing a much safer alternative to alcohol (surely you guys know the evils of alcohol) is not harm reduction? Surely I don’t have to mention how addictive alcohol is, or list the withdrawal symptoms, or the 35,000 deaths a year related to it, or the accidents, or the sexual assaults, domestic assaults…)

    If anyone at all switches from alcohol to marijuana, or if people choose marijuana over alcohol at least occasionally, than yes, statistically it would have to save lives… there are no two ways about it.

    Allow adults the choice between one deadly drug and one benign drug WILL SAVE LIVES. Forcing citizens to use alcohol as their recreational drug is KILLING PEOPLE.

  • Alice Robertson

    quote: Allow adults the choice between one deadly drug and one benign drug WILL SAVE LIVES. Forcing citizens to use alcohol as their recreational drug is KILLING PEOPLE. end quote

    But it’s not an either/or debate, and it’s not a “benign drug”. The “benign drug” word usage is bothersome, particularly when you consider your credentials. This starts to look a bit straw mannish as far as debate goes.

    Your line of reasoning is faulty and if you continue your train of thought there are all sorts of drugs that supposedly aren’t addictive and destructive, but we could still argue are useful. My relative just finished rehab for marijuana usage (claimed he was addicted and wanted peyote rights, so I guess I need to tell him to get a refund? ) I have a friend who uses the date rape drug to sleep at night (she is a doctor), another who claims ecstasy cures depression (another doctor). Their stories kick in my empathetic reasoning to. But your scenarios are selective (maybe even outrageous) stories to state your case, and one would think you are capable of much better than that. Maybe that’s what’s really scary……..doctors using selective reasoning to build something that is a personal preference (whether they gain or not, or use or not, it’s something they prefer to be available), and then claim it’s their empathy that is talking (how about some real data?). And it’s this very line-of-reasoning that is messing up research and making it so unbelievable we won’t even recognize the truth when it’s right in our face because we are so skeptical, and worn out from all the constant filtering from empathetically blindsided researchers.

    Peace pipe?

  • andrew

    No… it’s not an either/or debate… it’s a both/choice debate.

    Is it outragouse to say alcohol kills over 35000 people each year?
    Is it outragous to say marijuana hasn’t isn’t lethal?
    You say my reasoning is faulty, than you applied my reasoning to other drugs!?!? You didn’t point out where the fault in my reasoning actually is! Are you saying people shouldn’t worry about there health when they take drugs recreationally? Are you trying to say alcohol is as dangerous as marijuana (then I’d have to question your credentials!)

    I don’t just ‘say’ marijuana is safer than alcohol.
    Compare death rates between alcohol and marijuana.
    Compare the effects of both to the cells and organs in the body.
    Compare the effects on the brain.
    Compare the violence associate with the use of each.
    Compare instances of cancer from each substance.
    Compare what drugs are in the systems of those who commit suicide.
    Compare the number of accident for which each are directly responsible.
    Compare addiction rates.
    Compare withdrawal symptoms.

    Get back to me when you’re done.

    In the mid 1990s, the World Health Organization commissioned a team of scientists to compare the health and societal consequences of cannabis use compared to other drugs, including alcohol, nicotine, and opiates, After comparing and quantifying the magnitude of dangers associated with these drugs, the researchers concluded:
    “Overall, most of these risks (associated with marijuana) are small to moderate in size. In aggregate they are unlikely to produce public health problems comparable in scale to those currently produced by alcohol and tobacco…. On existing patterns of use, cannabis poses a much less serious public health problem than is currently posed by alcohol and tobacco in Western societies.”
    The WHO ultimately removed these findings from its final 1997 report, “Cannabis: A Health Perspective and Research Agenda,” after allegedly receiving political pressure from the United States, which argued that such conclusions could undermine its ongoing criminal prohibition of marijuana.

  • andrew

    French scientists at the state medical research institute INSERM published review of all drugs in 1998. Researchers categorized legal and illegal drugs into three distinct categories: those that pose the greatest threat to public health, those that pose moderate harms to the public, and those substances that pose little to no danger. Not surprisingly, alcohol, heroin, and cocaine were placed in the most dangerous category, while tobacco and hallucinogens were categorized as posing moderate risks to the public’s health. Investigators determined that cannabis posed the least danger to public health.

    Source: Reuters News Wire, “French Report Says Drinking Worse Than Cannabis,” June 16, 1998

  • andrew

    Since 1969, government-appointed commissions in the United States, Canada, England, Australia, and the Netherlands concluded, after reviewing the scientific evidence, that marijuana’s dangers had previously been greatly exaggerated, and urged lawmakers to drastically reduce or eliminate penalties for marijuana possession.

    Source: Advisory Committee on Drug Dependence, Cannabis, London, England: Her Majesty’s Stationery Office (1969); Canadian Government Commission of Inquiry, The Non-Medical Use of Drugs, Ottawa, Canada: Information Canada (1970); The National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse, Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding, (Nixon-Shafer Report) (1972); Werkgroep Verdovende Middelen, Background and Risks of Drug Use, The Hague, The Netherlands: Staatsuigeverij (1972); Senate Standing Committee on Social Welfare, Drug Problems in Australia–An Intoxicated Society, Canberra, Australia: Australian Government Publishing Service (1977).

  • andrew

    “Maybe that’s what’s really scary……..doctors using selective reasoning to build something that is a personal preference (whether they gain or not, or use or not, it’s something they prefer to be available), and then claim it’s their empathy that is talking (how about some real data?).”

    Doctors don’t seem to have a problem prescribing deadly opiates to people! Yet here’s a drug that’s been used and been around longer than opiate derivatives, can’t cause overdose, isn’t as addictive, isn’t as nearly as intoxicating and doesn’t cause the same dramatic decrease in motor control!

    Doctors also seem more likely to prescribe Marinol that is 100 percent synthetic THC, and nobody seems overly concerned about its health effects. (Nobody at the US Food and Drug Administration is particularly concerned either. In 1999, FDA officials downgraded Marinol from a Schedule II controlled substance to a Schedule III drug – a change made largely because of its low abuse potential and impeccable safety record… despite the fact that most still favor inhaling cannabis because Marinol makes people feel ‘too stoned’. And all this, even though Marijuana has been used and studied much, much more and longer than Marinol ever has!)

  • Alice Robertson

    quote: Doctors don’t seem to have a problem prescribing deadly opiates to people! end quote

    Well………maybe we should make doctors illegal! Ack! Just trying to keep the train of thought going.

  • andrew

    “Alcohol is one of the most toxic drugs, and using just 10 times what one would use to get the desired effect can lead to death. Marijuana is one of – if not the – least toxic drugs, requiring thousands times the dose one would use to get the desired effect to lead to death. This “thousands times” is actually theoretical, since there has never been a recorded case of marijuana overdose.”

    I was wondering whether anyone here thinks doctors should speak out about public policies that push hard (yet legal) drugs on it’s citizens and steers them away from softer drugs that can’t cause death.
    (thanks for the link to PLNDP George!)

    Just wondering if it’s your guys job to try to prevent people from dying or not (or do they need to be in the hospital first)?
    :)

  • Alice Robertson

    Andrew said: Six months later, at Brown University, David Lewis and 36 other distinguished physicians founded Physician Leadership for National Drug Policy [now Physicians and Lawyers for National Drug Policy] (www.plndp.org). PLNDP was begun to persuade the United States to deal with psychoactive drugs by applying scientific best evidence rather than the myths, lies, religion, and ideology our country had been using.

    Fast forward to 2010. In this publication, more than 80% of some 1,800 (and counting) physicians in a current MedPage Today survey responded that marijuana should be reclassified from Schedule I. Great progress!

    As a forensic pathologist, I know that tobacco and alcohol kill every day in most American cities, legally. To my knowledge, marijuana has never toxicologically killed any one.

    I don’t use grass myself and I don’t recommend it; but for patients with terminal HIV or cancer, if they find palliative relief from medical marijuana, why not?

    As to the broader question of recreational use, regulation, and taxation, I suspect that there will be a lot of unintended consequences when that first American state takes those legal steps, probably fairly soon. [end]

    Alice: Hmmm……”Great Progress!”? Considering what you shared today about physicians I would surmise that if they are giving out drugs the way you share that, indeed, marijuana could be considered a lesser evil, but recommended (and considering what I hear about a segment of physicians I am wondering if some of the doctors I use need drug testing)? I consider acid a lesser evil to heroine…….but I am not arguing for psychedelic mushrooms to be sold at the health food store. And it’s bothersome you want to debate on a level of empathy for the sick, and not a wide-range of statistics because placing the debate on a toxicology of death levels seems convenient (and limited). My friend works with the medical examiners office, has a PhD, and works in toxicology and he would disagree with you (he gave up marijuana years ago, not that they don’t take home the “good” drugs of the dead people). I tend to think you could wage a more convincing debate if you just stuck to it being natural and organic!

    When you share that there will be “unintended consequences” don’t you think that’s a little naive? That places marijuana in the same category as the tobacco and alcohol you have tried to use as the greater evils (isn’t tracking alcohol deaths easier? Stats from hospitals and car accidents from alcohol use would seem to be easily accessible [compared to the reports you shared from the 1990's. Do you have anything more recent that the conspiratorial 1997 report you cited from WHO? I saw what you quoted from INSERM in 1998, but that had tobacco listed as a "moderate" threat and I have read doctors claim we could close half the hospitals in America if we abolished tobacco. I really don't know much about this report, but I am not sure I agree that tobacco is a "moderate" threat, and I really struggle with all this government regulation.......we could do dueling stats until the fat lady sings........yeah she must toke too........marijuana contributes to the obesity epidemic.....don't ya' think)? It just seems to equate to the guns don't kill......bullets do argument. I was helping out at an Indian Reservation and nothing I can share here is on the research level (it's all personal), but the damage done from both marijuana and alcohol use there is beyond anything I have ever seen. They have their "religious" exemptions in place, and they are clearly worshipping a whole lot there.......and the young kids smoke it, then move on to bigger things. Of course, this is all relative and possibly doing what I shared you are doing.......taking a small segment and building a case on it.......I realize hard cases don't make good law.

    Andrew: Are you saying people shouldn’t worry about there health when they take drugs recreationally? Are you trying to say alcohol is as dangerous as marijuana (then I’d have to question your credentials!) [end]

    Alice: No! I think there is tons of data out there starting at the rehab I was just at about the use of marijuana and it’s addictiveness, consequences, and health problems (oh, wait a minute…..I don’t drink or smoke! I was visiting a relative there and reviewing the materials! Well….that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it! ). I tend think you are sincerely putting forth a skewed view to make your argument more persuasive, and some of what you share is thought provoking from that particular angle……but somehow it seems there is logic lacking on some levels.

    The more you share, the more food for thought you give us. Thank you!

  • andrew

    Thanks for your response Alice…

    If you could be more specific as to what exactly I am skewing, that would be great! Please enlighten me on it’s addictiveness and health problems! I didn’t come here to be let off lightly!

    I am aware, that there is a debate surround whether marijuana is physically addictive or not, though I’d concede that it, like most things, it is definitely psychologically addictive. Yet I’d be surprised if you believed that alcohol wasn’t significantly more addictive than marijuana. It lacks both the physical and psychological dependence liability associated with other intoxicants – including tobacco and alcohol. And SURELY you are aware that up to 70% of people in rehab for marijuana are forced by the courts to attend.

    In fact, two experts in the field, Drs. Jack E. Henningfields of the US Nation Institute on Drug Abuse, and Neal L. Benowitz of the University California at San Francisco – reported to the New York Times that pot’s addiction potential is no greater than caffeine’s.

    According to the NIDA (National Institute for Drug Abuse) the
    This was affirmed by the nonpartisan Nation Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine, which published a comprehensive federal study in 1999, assessing marijuana’s impact upon health. The authors determined, “Millions of Americans have tried marijuana, but most are not regular users and few marijuana users become dependent on it… Although some marijuana users develop dependence, they appear to be less likely to do so than users of other drugs (including alcohol and nicotine), and marijuana dependence appears to be less severe than dependence on other drugs.”

    According to 2006 statistics provided by the US government Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Association, more than one-third of those in treatment for pot hadn’t even used the drug in the thirty days prior to admission. Rather, they are average Americans who have experienced the misfortune of being busted for possessing a small amount of weed who are forced to choose between rehab or jail.

    I admit to being biased, yet I have tons of studies which support my position, as well as meta studies, government commissioned studies (which have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo) and hours and hours of, shall we say, lab time.

    Also, I am confused by the waiving off of the death statistics as though 35000 dead Americans vs. 0 dead is meaningless.
    If there were two different types of vitiamin pills on the market, one that killed a sizable portion of the population each year, and one that didn’t, would you not recommend people choose the safer of the two… life over death?

    What is your thinking here?

  • andrew

    Some of my post got cut off…

    According to the NIDA (National Institute for Drug Abuse) the worst withdrawal symptoms for long-term marijuana users are “irritability, sleeplessness, decreased appetite, anxiety”

    I invite you to compare that to the withdrawal symptoms of alcohol, which you know, can lead to death.

  • Alice Robertson

    Andrew said: In fact, two experts in the field, Drs. Jack E. Henningfields of the US Nation Institute on Drug Abuse, and Neal L. Benowitz of the University California at San Francisco – reported to the New York Times that pot’s addiction potential is no greater than caffeine’s. [end]

    Alice: Okay……..you gave me some statistics here, but hmm………I think I knew these researchers in a past life! Ack! I need to remember my old html codes so I can impart via this post that I just sound like an ex-druggie………… I have that British dark, sardonic humor thing goin’ on……..sorry………I’ll get serious! I really don’t drink or smoke and never have…….but I lived in the UK… and got quite an education and it scared me……..actually, I was bloody terrified of touching the stuff!

    Caffeine is so addictive I think that correlation only helps my stance. I need more time and caffeine (now there’s something I am addicted to, but don’t want the government regulating……..so on that thought level we would agree).

    Good questions……..and I need time to think. I really do need some caffeine.

  • Alice Robertson

    Andrew said: If you could be more specific as to what exactly I am skewing, that would be great! Please enlighten me on it’s addictiveness and health problems! I didn’t come here to be let off lightly! [end]

    Alice: Hmm……..now if I share one site, you can share another site, and we can match notes for days on this. A google search of either side will bring up all sorts of things. I can share that my brother has an addiction to marijuana and his teeth are falling out…….so…..just like the old gold prospectors…….dentists may want to back you and promote marijuana because it’s good for their business. Yeah…….I did a search on google about pot smoker’s gums…….isn’t google brilliant? Just don’t do a search for images on this topic……ewww!

    Andrew: I am aware, that there is a debate surround whether marijuana is physically addictive or not, though I’d concede that it, like most things, it is definitely psychologically addictive. Yet I’d be surprised if you believed that alcohol wasn’t significantly more addictive than marijuana. It lacks both the physical and psychological dependence liability associated with other intoxicants – including tobacco and alcohol. And SURELY you are aware that up to 70% of people in rehab for marijuana are forced by the courts to attend. [end]

    Alice: So, your argument is that because alcohol is supposedly more addictive than pot (being the lesser evil) is your basis for your stance on legalizing it (along with your empathy for a small minority that you believe need it. I won’t argue that point except to say that it opens a whole wider range of scenarios. My friend was helped by electric shock treatment, but I am not sure if I am grateful for that, and my friend doesn’t really know how weird it made him. Hey….if he’s happy……wait a minute…..he isn’t!)?

    On one level I can understand that, but on another level…….umm……..it sounds a bit absurd to say a little poison won’t hurt. My relatives fly over to Amsterdam and I struggle with this because their firsthand stories are shocking. Research and algorithms are helpful, but ultimately, I tend to think firsthand experience is quite useful. I didn’t know about the 70% stat with rehab, but I do know my very unclinical, firsthand experience with the stories from rehab (I really was visiting) would not match up to that. Interesting!

    Andrew said: In fact, two experts in the field, Drs. Jack E. Henningfields of the US Nation Institute on Drug Abuse, and Neal L. Benowitz of the University California at San Francisco – reported to the New York Times that pot’s addiction potential is no greater than caffeine’s.
    [end]

    Alice: I went to the National Institute of Health and their page on marijuana was enlightening (a snip….below). Scary stuff! I looked up both of these guys and they are on the same page as you are with the “Pro Con” debate, but some of what they share is disturbing and would support my view…..hence the pro/con (and this is why I said it seems you are “skewed”, but of course, you think I am). It’s easily found, but here is one page:
    http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=253&print=true

    snip:
    http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

    Research on the long-term effects of marijuana abuse indicates some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term abuse of other major drugs. For example, cannabinoid withdrawal in chronically exposed animals leads to an increase in the activation of the stress-response system3 and changes in the activity of nerve cells containing dopamine.4 [end]

    Andrew said: This was affirmed by the nonpartisan Nation Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine, which published a comprehensive federal study in 1999, assessing marijuana’s impact upon health. The authors determined, “Millions of Americans have tried marijuana, but most are not regular users and few marijuana users become dependent on it… Although
    some marijuana users develop dependence, they appear to be less likely to do so than users of other drugs (including alcohol and nicotine), and marijuana dependence appears to be less severe than dependence on other drugs.”
    [end]

    Alice: This is where my “naive” assessment comes in. I believe this institute is arguing for a medical use of marijuana? Some sites argue on a medical use, not a general population legalization.

    Andrew said: According to 2006 statistics provided by the US government Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Association, more than one-third of those in treatment for pot hadn’t even used the drug in the thirty days prior to admission. Rather, they are average Americans who have experienced the misfortune of being busted for possessing a small amount of weed who
    are forced to choose between rehab or jail.[end]

    Alice: This is where our dueling statistics will come in. The National Institutes of Health’s branch of the National Institute on Drug Abuse has different stats than you quoted. Here is another snippet (and there is so much more. I fear this is turning into a book):

    http://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
    The latest treatment data indicate that in 2006 marijuana was the most common illicit drug of abuse and was responsible for about 16 percent (289,988) of all admissions to treatment facilities in the United States. Marijuana admissions were primarily male (73.8 percent), White (51.5 percent), and young (36.1 percent were in the 15–19 age range). Those in treatment for primary marijuana abuse had begun use at an early age: 56.2 percent had abused it by age 14 and 92.5 percent had abused it by age 18.**

    How Widespread is Marijuana Abuse?
    National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH)***
    According to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, in 2007, 14.4 million Americans aged 12 or older used marijuana at least once in the month prior to being surveyed, which is similar to the 2006 rate. About 6,000 people a day in 2007 used marijuana for the first time—2.1 million Americans. Of these, 62.2 percent were under age 18. [end]

    Andrew said: I admit to being biased, yet I have tons of studies which support my position, as well as meta studies, government commissioned studies (which have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo) and hours and hours of, shall we say, lab time. [end]

    Alice: Hmm…….”lab time”!? A public confession? Firsthand experience is powerful! ha!

    Andrew said: Also, I am confused by the waiving off of the death statistics as though 35000 dead Americans vs. 0 dead is meaningless.
    If there were two different types of vitamin pills on the market, one that killed a sizable portion of the population each year, and one that didn’t, would you not recommend people choose the safer of the two… life over death? [end]

    Alice: Now this is quite good to offer up, but I think the logic could be a bit inaccurate because I think research is lacking on the overall impact of marijuana deaths, but how many deaths do you think marijuana contributed to (healthwise…..and, obviously, being illegal means people are dying in the transportation and illicit drug trade. Again, that only helps your case…..but making it legal will just make tracking the deaths it contributes to easier, and then we will have a problem of the incidentals in the peripherals……just like alcohol?)

    I don’t recommend pot or alcohol, and this is why I said upfront it shouldn’t be an either/or type of debate. There are less suicides than alcohol deaths and I am not recommending that either. But then again being fat will kill a whole lot more people than alcohol, prescription drugs, or even firearms and I don’t want fast food regulated………so maybe I am inconsistent depending on the substance (personal preferences do rule our choices)? Hmmm……..thinking……….I need an iced coffee!

  • andrew

    Alice: A google search of either side will bring up all sorts of things. I can share that my brother has an addiction to marijuana and his teeth are falling out…….so…..just like the old gold prospectors…….dentists may want to back you and promote marijuana because it’s good for their business.

    OK, I found one small, but interesting studies, with maybe’s peppered throughout it… good thing there are safer ways to ingest marijuana other than smoking! It’d be nice to see a confirmation of this study, that controls for SEC. Unfortunately, because it’s illegal, you get more ‘undesirables’ smoking it, and less people like yourself smoking it (I’m sure you take good care of your teeth). I concede though, there ‘may’ be a connection here. (My teeth are fine, BTW… I wonder how many people loss teeth falling down drunk, or getting into bar-room fights?)

    Alice: So, your argument is that because alcohol is supposedly more addictive than pot (being the lesser evil) is your basis for your stance on legalizing it

    Well, not supposedly (addiction sciences are an actual field), that is one, out of many reasons why it is much ‘less evil’ than alcohol, of which, the ‘lesser evil’ (or how I like to say it… ‘the infinitely less deadly’… but I have a flare for rhetoric) is one of many reasons to legalize it.

    Alice:it sounds a bit absurd to say a little poison won’t hurt.

    Um… doctors give ALL KINDS of poisons in small amounts… and say just that! I’m saying marijuana in LARGE doses won’t hurt… and I believe I backed that up! That is NOT an unfounded claim. (And actually alcohol in small doses CAN STILL kill. In fact, a 2009 British study of some 1.3 million women age 50-64 reported that consuming as little as even one alcoholic beverage per day significantly elevated a female’s risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer. The study estimated that as many as 5 percent of all cancers diagnosed in women annually in the US are likely the result of low to moderate alcohol consumption.)

    Alice:The latest treatment data indicate that in 2006 marijuana was the most common illicit drug of abuse and was responsible for about 16 percent (289,988) of all admissions to treatment facilities in the United States. Marijuana admissions were primarily male (73.8 percent), White (51.5 percent), and young (36.1 percent were in the 15–19 age range). Those in treatment for primary marijuana abuse had begun use at an early age: 56.2 percent had abused it by age 14 and 92.5 percent had abused it by age 18.

    OK, I’m having trouble seeing how this contradicts what I posted.
    I would just make the point that all use is abuse to these people.
    These groups (although I site some of their statistics, I hate their politics) claim people only use marijuana because they are addicted, and not because they enjoy it!

    Alice:but how many deaths do you think marijuana contributed to (healthwise…..and, obviously, being illegal means people are dying in the transportation and illicit drug trade. Again, that only helps your case…..but making it legal will just make tracking the deaths it contributes to easier, and then we will have a problem of the incidentals in the peripherals……just like alcohol?)

    Do you have to ask… you and i both know there is no proven way that marijuana use can shorten your life. Don’t fool yourself, marijuana is one of the most studied plants on earth. Governments have been trying to find negative health effects of marijuana use for over 40 years so they can use it to support their policy (you should really read up on the politics of how it became illegal… No debate, no studies, no expert opinion!). The DEA only approves studies that are directly searching for negative effects. Should be wait another 100 years, and then, if we still can’t find a way that marijuana can kill, then can we considered it safer?
    Your provided a single studies… I can proved studies of all marijuana studies, committees of scientists put together by various governments, all always coming to the same conclusion!

    Also…It WOULD be nice if we could better track the health effects (apparently tens of millions of people smoking it all over the world just doesn’t seem to bring to the forefront the negative consequences?) Maybe put warning labels on the packets? Make age requirements for purchase? Label the potency and effects? Wouldn’t these be positive things for public safety?

    Alice:I don’t recommend pot or alcohol, and this is why I said upfront it shouldn’t be an either/or type of debate.

    Don’t care… I don’t recommend cave diving or curing… but if you ask me which one is safer… I am able to give an answer. Most people in the world use recreation drugs. To deny health advise to your patients regarding recreational drugs, because of your own morals or particular views, I believe, is doing your patients a serious disservice.

    Oh, the thing about suicide was funny (although not if you were claiming committing suicide is safer than alcohol… that wouldn’t be funny at all). An interesting fact about suicide… individuals with alcohol dependence have a 60–120 times greater suicide risk than the non-psychiatrically-ill population. I’ve also read other studies that suggest 30% to 50% of suicide victims had alcohol in their system.

    I don’t want this to be an either/or debate… I want it to be a debate centered around choice, and choice with all the facts as to the safety and harms of all drugs so people can make informed opinions. Pretty sensible, No? If you did your own survey, you’d find most people either think marijuana is as deadly, or more deadly than alcohol (when it is not deadly AT ALL)… partly as a result from direct misinformation from the government and partly because people are NOT informed enough on the really consequences of either alcohol or marijuana. Information that can help peoples health and save lives!

    Anyways, thanks for the response again!

  • andrew

    Correction:
    Don’t care… I don’t recommend cave diving or CURLING.

  • LynnB

    Hate to interrupt the argument, but I just want more medical facts about marijuana. I am not sure if its current legal status helps or hinders. I have a patient with type 1 diabetes, who is repeatedly readmitted with dehydration and alkalosis and high sugars. Is this the culprit?First reports in Australia where its effectively legal.

    The Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome Characterized by Persistent Nausea and Vomiting, Abdominal Pain, and Compulsive Bathing Associated with Chronic Marijuana Use: A Report of Eight Cases in the United States.

    Soriano-Co M, Batke M, Cappell MS.

    Department of Medicine, William Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak, MI, USA.

    If this exists , tell me about why it helps nausea in cancer patients-is it because they are nutritionally depleted?

    What about weight loss and the endocannbanoid system and that German drug that never made it here? I want to know about that as well.

    I have many type 2 patents who ask if this lowers their blood sugar- (“is that why I crave cookies and chips?”) – I can answer the question for legal drugs, because we know

    Personally I hate dealing with the stuff, but I know I am a minority. Heck I hate dealing with alcohol and benzodiazepenes and hydrocodone as well.

  • andrew

    LynnB:Hate to interrupt the argument, but I just want more medical facts about marijuana. I am not sure if its current legal status helps or hinders.

    We’re not arguing, I don’t think.

    I’m sorry… you’re not SURE if the current legal status helps or hinders research!!! There are plenty of stories about the DEA not allowing research into the drug and its health effects and about scientists not being able to get supplies of marijuana from the government to do testing. I don’t know if it is any different outside of the US or Canada (of which I’m familiar) but here, getting a grant or permission to do marijuana research as been severely hampered.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1560610120080215
    “The American College of Physicians, the second-largest doctors group in the United States, issued a policy statement on medical marijuana this week after it was approved by its governing body, the group said on Friday.

    The group cited evidence that marijuana is valuable in treating severe weight loss associated with AIDS, and nausea and vomiting associated with chemotherapy in cancer patients.

    “Additional research is needed to clarify marijuana’s therapeutic properties and determine standard and optimal doses and routes of delivery. Unfortunately, research expansion has been hindered by a complicated federal approval process, limited availability of research-grade marijuana and the debate over legalization,” the group said.”

    I had never heard of The Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome, so I’m glad you brought it to my attention. If this is confirmed to be true, this maybe the most serious negative effect from chronic marijuana use yet found. Seems pretty rare, and still not near as bad, as say, cancer or liver disease (or as common). And they say it goes away as soon as the use stops use… wish we could say the same thing as regards to alcohol and the damage it causes! The symptoms actually sound like pregnancy! :)

    I’m not aware of the reason why cannabis helps people with nausea and unintended weight loss (I assume they would go hand in hand, if you’re not throwing up, you’re are digesting). There is no doubt that the “munchies effect” is real.

    Lynn: Personally I hate dealing with the stuff, but I know I am a minority. Heck I hate dealing with alcohol and benzodiazepenes and hydrocodone as well.

    I am amazed how bias is preventing people from making rational opinions on this subject.

    So do YOU believe marijuana is more dangerous than alcohol (35000 deaths a year in the US), benzodiazepenes (statistics in England showed that benzodiazepines were responsible for 3.8% of all deaths by poisoning from a single drug) or hydrocodone (Due to its opiate-related side effects such as euphoria, sedation and somnolence, hydrocodone is now one of the most common recreational prescription drugs in America, along with oxycodone. Symptoms of hydrocodone overdose include respiratory depression; extreme somnolence; blue, clammy, or cold skin; narrowed or widened pupils; bradycardia; coma; seizures; cardiac arrest; and death.)

    How can you compare these drugs and even put them in the same category? Scientist who study drug abuse for a living certainly don’t. Am I the only one that can see the big picture here? People are dying from the drugs Doctors and Governments allow people to have… but won’t allow them to possess, under threat of violence, this relatively benign substance that is INCAPABLE OF KILLING! (I had to capitalize that, because I think it keeps getting overlooked.)

    So, when the next time someone comes in with liver disease, or mentions they become violent when they drink, or is worried about getting cancer, or mentions they binge drink at their fraternity… maybe you could give them some facts and steer them to the much safer substance? Or your other option could be to give them no facts, and tell them to stop using recreational drugs… but that should be their mothers job.

  • Alice Robertson

    Won’t a urine test show if someone has smoked pot?

    I have been gone all day and cannot respond because I go cross-eyed on this Droid. I need to figure out how to make this site readable (other sites allow the use of an application I can’t use here).

    Andrew …we agree……..we are nor arguing…..just friendly debate!

  • Alice Robertson

    Andrew said: OK, I found one small, but interesting studies, with maybe’s peppered throughout it… good thing there are safer ways to ingest marijuana other than smoking! It’d be nice to see a confirmation of this study, that controls for SEC. Unfortunately, because it’s illegal, you get more ‘undesirables’ smoking it, and less people like yourself smoking it (I’m sure you take good care of your teeth). I concede though, there ‘may’ be a connection here. (My teeth are fine, BTW… I wonder how many people loss teeth falling down drunk, or getting into bar-room fights?) [end]

    Alice: Wait a minute! So……..you think making it legal will reclassify the “undesirables” who smoke it because it’s illegal now? The hopeless romantic hempers may convert to respectable people who buy their joints in a pack? Ummm……..maybe some faulty logic? If you look at alcohol (that’s legal) and the “undesirables” I see with their signs that they will work for food (one had an honest sign that said, “If you give me money I am gonna drink it. Need beer!” People were appreciative of his honesty and he got his beer and some pics with his new friends on Facebook too!), I can only imagine this is the future, homeless pot smokers signs.

    Okay……..so…..your admission about your teeth being fine, and your knowledge about the finer details of pot ingestion ……would suggest you are a bit of a firsthand expert in this field! Me thinks you are debating out of personal preference? And your assumption is right……I gotta a thing for nice teeth (remember I lived in the UK……..ha! Actually, I married the only one with nice teeth! Oh no….I’m in trouble now. I may have to switch sides and join up with you if my relatives find this post). On a sidenote recently a neighbor’s boyfriend gave her dog the rest of his cookie mix (a very special batch of cannibus cookies). Her dog became violently ill, and a month later the dog was dead. The vet was discreet and didn’t turn her in, but when an animal activist found out he said he would have her arrested if he could get her address. So, that means you can add one dead dog to the statistics!

    And by your logic pot smokers will eat poorly and cause car accidents (their reflexs aren’t the best).

    Previously …Alice said: So, your argument is that because alcohol is supposedly more addictive than pot (being the lesser evil) is your basis for your stance on legalizing it

    Andrew responded: Well, not supposedly (addiction sciences are an actual field), that is one, out of many reasons why it is much ‘less evil’ than alcohol, of which, the ‘lesser evil’ (or how I like to say it… ‘the infinitely less deadly’… but I have a flare for rhetoric) is one of many reasons to legalize it.

    Alice: Has pot smoking helped perfect the flare for the rhetoric? Or should we endorse something a bit more mind-altering that won’t kill you? I gotta flare for facetiousness. Now getting back to reality…….just because something won’t kill you doesn’t make it permissible or good for mankind. If we want to debate on an empathetic ground one could deduce that morphine is empathetic so let’s make that legal? This is why I originally stated that by this type of reasoning we should support the Hemlock Society. Are cocaine deaths less than alcohol related deaths? And don’t the majority of drug deaths have pot and alcohol related usage?

    Previously Alice said:it sounds a bit absurd to say a little poison won’t hurt.

    Andrew said: Um… doctors give ALL KINDS of poisons in small amounts… and say just that! I’m saying marijuana in LARGE doses won’t hurt… and I believe I backed that up! That is NOT an unfounded claim. (And actually alcohol in small doses CAN STILL kill. In fact, a 2009 British study of some 1.3 million women age 50-64 reported that consuming as little as even one alcoholic beverage per day significantly elevated a female’s risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer. The study estimated that as many as 5 percent of all cancers diagnosed in women annually in the US are likely the result of low to moderate alcohol consumption.)

    Alice: You are absolutely right, and Dr. Oz would agree with you over the alcohol usage link with breast cancer. I tend to think the stats are higher and the overall supposed gain from alcohol isn’t a gain at all. But that leads to all sorts of debate over prohibition not working and will only help you! I tend to think that two wrongs don’t make a right, and we can take the experience and not legalize one more addictive and often destructive drug. But by saying that it opens a can of worms. I am surprised you didn’t bring up the whole drug issue and all the partakers in jail, while the actual dealers tend to gain monetarily and do little time. You know………the clogging up of the system angle.

    Andrew responded to the stat I deleted to save space: OK, I’m having trouble seeing how this contradicts what I posted.
    I would just make the point that all use is abuse to these people.
    These groups (although I site some of their statistics, I hate their politics) claim people only use marijuana because they are addicted, and not because they enjoy it! [end]

    Alice: We agree on something (the politics)! Of course addicts enjoy it…….very few people seek out torment for delight (egads! Let’s not go there!) It’s the enjoyment seeking that causes their brains to come to seek and need it. I don’t know anyone who wakes up one day thinking it would be cool to be addicted to anything.

    Andrew: Do you have to ask… you and I both know there is no proven way that marijuana use can shorten your life. Don’t fool yourself, marijuana is one of the most studied plants on earth. Governments have been trying to find negative health effects of marijuana use for over 40 years so they can use it to support their policy (you should really read up on the politics of how it became illegal… No debate, no studies, no expert opinion!). The DEA only approves studies that are directly searching for negative effects. Should be wait another 100 years, and then, if we still can’t find a way that marijuana can kill, then can we considered it safer?

    Alice: Andrew…………you are sounding a bit paranoid. Doesn’t pot cause paranoia? I may be seeing you at that rehab soon! haha I like a good conspiracy theory and something you and I do both know is that currently pot is laced with often very addictive substances. It ain’t the pot grandma smoked!

    Andrew: Your provided a single studies… I can proved studies of all marijuana studies, committees of scientists put together by various governments, all always coming to the same conclusion!

    Alice: Well………there are tons more studies, but I figure others can use google just as easily. That’s why I brought up the dueling stats. There are enough nutcases online to just about drive someone like me to drugs. I have shared here before that with a daughter with cancer I was overwhelmed and terrified and had to get offline to keep my sanity. Some of the stuff about cancer and Atomic Cocktails nearly drove this mother out-of-her-mind (well…….maybe it did………..would pot help me find it?)

    Andrew: Also…It WOULD be nice if we could better track the health effects (apparently tens of millions of people smoking it all over the world just doesn’t seem to bring to the forefront the negative consequences?) Maybe put warning labels on the packets? Make age requirements for purchase? Label the potency and effects? Wouldn’t these be positive things for public safety?

    Alice: I agree, it would be nice to track it, so maybe we can get the Attorney General involved here and make it attractive from a monetary stance and marketing stance? Ugh……….overactive facetiousness alert……..I have all sorts of visions running through my head of first the ads to buy it, then down the road instead of the government frying an egg on a hot skillet in an ad to warn us of the dangers of drugs they will have some toothless old guy with a mullet, looking upward trying to find the words that were once in his brain, and a sneaky smile on his face (well if it’s legal it may just be a smirk). I can see moms walking into the mall seeing the formerly “undesirables” out front smoking their joints before they go into the commons to fulfill their munchies desire (oh yes, by that time the government may have abolished all the junk food, so the tokers can now smoke organic weed and eat a tofu burger on wheat bread, of course). At least the veggies may take care of the dental problems……ha!

    I hate government regulation, but realize on one level your point is well-taken, but on another I really think it’s justified in this case.

    Previously Alice said: I don’t recommend pot or alcohol, and this is why I said upfront it shouldn’t be an either/or type of debate.

    Andrew said: Don’t care… I don’t recommend cave diving or curling… but if you ask me which one is safer… I am able to give an answer. Most people in the world use recreation drugs. To deny health advise to your patients regarding recreational drugs, because of your own morals or particular views, I believe, is doing your patients a serious disservice. [end]

    Alice: Well…….this could take all sorts of directions. I think a doctor could deny a woman an abortion based on his own religious or moral values. I wouldn’t want a doctor doing what is morally abhorrent to them, so it still comes down to government regulation and how much, and what role the government should play in protecting us from ourselves, and society from the calamity of drug usage, etc.

    Andrew: I don’t want this to be an either/or debate… I want it to be a debate centered around choice, and choice with all the facts as to the safety and harms of all drugs so people can make informed opinions. Pretty sensible, No? If you did your own survey, you’d find most people either think marijuana is as deadly, or more deadly than alcohol (when it is not deadly AT ALL)… partly as a result from direct misinformation from the government and partly because people are NOT informed enough on the really consequences of either alcohol or marijuana. Information that can help peoples health and save lives!

    Anyways, thanks for the response again! [end]

    Alice: This is useful information, and it is thought-provoking, but we still disagree, although admittedly I do believe someday you will realize your dream! I do believe pot will be legalized eventually, and assisted-suicide may become wider spread, and we may turn into the Great Amsterdam. It certainly isn’t my vision for America, but we are on a wave of socialism with the government becoming more powerful (few are guilty but we are all responsible).

  • andrew

    Wow, I figure I would have been kicked from here already as a troll or something. Preemptive apologies if I’m coming off across overly strident.

    Alice: So……..you think making it legal will reclassify the “undesirables” who smoke it because it’s illegal now?

    YOU don’t smoke it, presumably because it’s illegal, no? It’s a simple fact that there are people with certain personalities that like doing dangerous and illegal activities and they tend to skew the data. People that are persuaded from using marijuana purely because it is illegal tend to lean to the side of safety in all aspects of life. Proper drug studies should always control for Socio Economic Classes, mental problems, etc…

    Alice: I can only imagine this is the future, homeless pot smokers signs.

    I’ve seen one of those signs before! It was more to get laughs I think! There is a reason you don’t see homeless ‘pot-addicts’ on the streets. Just the idea of that makes me laugh!

    Alice: I gotta a thing for nice teeth (remember I lived in the UK……..ha! Actually, I married the only one with nice teeth! Oh no….I’m in trouble now.

    You’re crazy! :) … poor dog! A month later? It’s more likely there was chocolate or macadamia nuts in the cookie. Again, thousands of animal tests show the overdose rate to be nearly impossible to achieve. And the fact the dog died a month later leads me to believe something else happened here.

    Alice: And by your logic pot smokers will eat poorly and cause car accidents (their reflexs aren’t the best).

    Well… maybe eat more… I don’t know where you got eat poorly from? In terms of accidents, I don’t encourage people driving while high, yet studies I’ve seen show that even with a single alcoholic drink you are three times more likely to get into an accident (with your alcohol blood level still in the legal limit). While being completely high will affect your reflexes slightly, the impairment is more than noticeable to the user (marijuana users tend to think they are more impaired then they actually are, as opposed to alcohol users where the opposite is the case). In most studies people that are high drive very cautiously and actually tend to score just as good as they would have sober. That point is slightly moot, because marijuana doesn’t increase risk-taking behaviors, again, unlike alcohol.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/03/990325110700.htm
    ok… this next link is to cannabis culture… so clear your cache (just joking)
    http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1775.html
    Excerpt:
    “…a study released by the UK Transport Research Laboratory in August 2000, which found that pot-smoking has a minimal if not beneficial effect on driving performance.
    The government-funded study was launched under pressure from anti-drug and driving groups, and was an embarassment to the British Ministers who had expected it to support their anti-stoned-driving campaigns.”

    YOUTUBE! (actual test of someone high driving!)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZv2Al6m-q4&feature=PlayList&p=99542052E49F5E38&playnext_from=PL&index=29
    Excerpt: “If you are finding it more difficult, why did you do almost better then you did before the joint?”

    In general, people that are high don’t enjoy driving, and when they do they drive slower and more cautiously. Even with a single drink in their system, alcohol users start driving more quickly, and their speed tends to increase with more alcohol consumption.

    Alice: Now getting back to reality…….just because something won’t kill you doesn’t make it permissible or good for mankind.

    YES, if there is a recreational drug that DOESN’T KILL out of the large majority that do… I think that is great for mankind! (especially if the use of one over the other can drastically reduce DEATH – but I also believe man has a basic instinct to alter his consciousness, which I understand is controversial). I have no doubt that recreation drugs, and marijuana specifically, facilitates and enhances relaxation, reducing stress, and lends to communal, peaceable social environments (I live in a student neighborhood and the loud wooo-whooos every weekend at midnight lead be to believe alcohol does not lend itself to peaceable social environments.)

    Alice:I am surprised you didn’t bring up the whole drug issue and all the partakers in jail, while the actual dealers tend to gain monetarily and do little time. You know………the clogging up of the system angle.

    That is just one of the many arguments I’m perfecting. I figure the health angle on the MD blog was appropriate. The ‘clogging the system’ argument hasn’t been able to convince people to change things. This new argument, that marijuana is objectively much, much safer than alcohol, and that allowing adults the choice will help save lives… is a step up in the rhetoric for this fight… and one that I believe is suppported by the science and common sense. It’s not my arguement…
    check out http://www.saferchoice.org

    Alice: Andrew…………you are sounding a bit paranoid. Doesn’t pot cause paranoia? I may be seeing you at that rehab soon! haha I like a good conspiracy theory and something you and I do both know is that currently pot is laced with often very addictive substances. It ain’t the pot grandma smoked!

    I am doing something against the law and I sometimes fear that simply standing up against this policy will get me in trouble. If the government was threatening you with jail for a health choice you made… maybe you’d see things my way? (Also, despite the fact that I dislike conspiracy theories… there is no doubt that, and minimum, politics is getting in the way of rational policies being implemented… ahhh… so hard… need to rant about government… ahhh… I’ll avoid that for now and stick to health)

    Alice: Well………there are tons more studies

    I understand your confusion… I prefer to try to stick to meta-studies and reviews of all the marijuana literature, such as the committees of scientist and doctors from Canada, America, France, Holland, Australia and the UK that have taken systematic reviews of all the literature.

    I used to think, as well as the rest of the world, that marijuana caused brain damage, (thanks to a study reported on in Time magazine in the 70s or 80s. After the test couldn’t be reproduced, that lead of the study admitted he gave the monkeys so much marijuana smoke that the brain damage came from a lack of oxygen to the brain… but the myth still persists despite…
    http://www.themarijuanamission.com/heavyuse.htm
    http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/geninfo/Reuters_062703.pdf

    Here’s a smaller, newer study, yet, obviously, I find it fascinating.
    Study shows marijuana increases brain cell growth.
    http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2005-3/issue9/ne-mj.html

    I need to take a break and respond to the rest in a while…

  • andrew

    Alice:I think a doctor could deny a woman an abortion based on his own religious or moral values. I wouldn’t want a doctor doing what is morally abhorrent to them, so it still comes down to government regulation and how much

    You think a doctor should be ABLE to deny certain procedures? That sentence made we shudder to be quite honest. I, personally, don’t think a doctors morals should come into play here at all (I mean, by all means give your opinion, but it IS immoral to limit information or medical help because of how one feels or ones personnel philosophy…)… just give the patient the facts (science please). What about a Doctor that is completely against pain killers… or maybe dislikes blood transfusions because of their religion and always tries to urge patients against it… this slope has ice all over it!

    Or maybe you were being funny? Is this that your English dry humour?

    Alice: This is useful information, and it is thought-provoking, but we still disagree, although admittedly I do believe someday you will realize your dream! I do believe pot will be legalized eventually, and assisted-suicide may become wider spread, and we may turn into the Great Amsterdam. It certainly isn’t my vision for America, but we are on a wave of socialism with the government becoming more powerful (few are guilty but we are all responsible).

    I’m very glad you’re finding this all least somewhat interesting/informational… hopefully at the very least entertaining… though I am upset I couldn’t persuade you!
    I as well, believe cannabis will be legalized in the next 5 years (Thor willing)… I am also ‘for’ assisted suicide. Wait, are you from the UK or the US?

  • andrew

    Alice: Won’t a urine test show if someone has smoked pot?

    Yes, thanks for the reminder…

    Not only do current policies push recreation drug users from the safer substance, cannabis, and towards the much more deadly alcohol, but groups that drug test people, like many employers in the US do, push people to use other hard drugs, such as Cocaine/crack and Methamphetamines. Cannabioniods can stay in the body for up to a month, whereas harder drugs tend to leave the system in 1-2 days making it safer (in terms of keeping their employment) for employees to use hard, dangerous drugs.

    I have friends for who this is the case… going to Alberta to work in the oil fields and coming back home with hard drug addictions, or at if not an addiction, new illegal habits.

  • Alice

    Andrew I really don’t think you will get booted from this board. I would surmise anyone bored silly with the conversation just won’t read it, but I was thinking that this thread will be here a very long time…………then wondered if it will be here when you are a parent. Of course, that’s pure assumption on my part, but being a parent changes us in ways it’s hard to comprehend before that time. Caring for someone else’s well-being is one of the best things that happens to us.

    We are both bringing our own personal ideologies to the table. You are sharing from your own personal experience and trying to use online data to back your stance, and I can do the same. I struggle because my brother was a drug dealer, and his two sons are heroine addicts and their home always smells like pot. The home I grew up in always smelled like pot to. There were “undesirables” in and out our basement all the time, so I usually stayed away the best I could. Yet, like a voyeur I found some of it fascinating (this was pre-MTV reality show). Teachers at school couldn’t believe I came from the same DNA! And unbeknownst to me my brother would be generous with his drugs and you knew you were in trouble when he would ask, “Do you feel funny?” Ugh! You knew he had spiked your drink and you were in for a long night. I lived out in the country and I was very young (age 12) when he started sharing! You would watch birds flying off of pictures and wonder how you could capture them, or food dancing, rainbow like showers, and sometimes terror. Yeah, some of it was quite fun, but……..I am not recommending it, and I don’t think there are many deaths from psychedelics. Timothy Leary waged some good arguments about that too! Imagine what his blog would look like? Of if he was blogging from jail? Why I could use the Beatles as an example of just how great psychedelics enlighten our prudish minds. Ummm………yeah, I haven’t had any caffeine today……my drug of choice.

    Anyhoo……..now you know why I am weird! Any cures for acid flashbacks?

  • Alice

    I need to take a break and respond to the rest in a while…[end]

    Ummm……..coffee break I hope?

  • Alice

    Andrew said: Not only do current policies push recreation drug users from the safer substance, cannabis, and towards the much more deadly alcohol, but groups that drug test people, like many employers in the US do, push people to use other hard drugs, such as Cocaine/crack and Methamphetamines. Cannabioniods can stay in the body for up to a month, whereas harder drugs tend to leave the system in 1-2 days making it safer (in terms of
    keeping their employment) for employees to use hard, dangerous drugs. [end]

    Alice: It’s not the policies pushing anyone, it’s our brains. Let’s face it we like it! Maybe too much! If you go to the meetings at rehab the stories would scare you to death, and one of the main policies in rehab is to take 100% personal responsibility for your actions (and half are there from legal prescriptions for xanax and pain pills. Maybe we could make them legal? And the vast majority are pot smokers).

    Andrew: I have friends for who this is the case… going to Alberta to work in the oil fields and coming back home with hard drug addictions, or at if not an addiction, new illegal habits.

    Alice: So legalizing marijuana will prevent this?

    Alice previously said :I think a doctor could deny a woman an abortion based on his own religious or moral
    values. I wouldn’t want a doctor doing what is morally abhorrent to them, so it still comes down to government regulation and how much

    Andrew: You think a doctor should be ABLE to deny certain procedures? That sentence made we
    shudder to be quite honest. I, personally, don’t think a doctors morals should come into play here at all (I mean, by all means give your opinion, but it IS immoral to limit information or medical help because of how one feels or ones personnel philosophy…)… just give the patient the facts (science please). What about a Doctor that is completely
    against pain killers… or maybe dislikes blood transfusions because of their religion and always tries to urge patients against it… this slope has ice all over it!

    Or maybe you were being funny? Is this that your English dry humour? [end]

    Alice: Writing can be persnickety at times. Sorry! I do have a wicked sense of humor, but I was serious. I didn’t say doctors shouldn’t be a source of information, but I do not believe they should not be forced to do procedures that would break a religious conviction. I do not believe a Jehovah’s Witness doctor should be court-ordered into doing a blood transfusion (there are other doctors willing to do so), and I do not believe that a doctor who firmly believes an abortion is murder should be forced to sear his moral conscience to do so.

    I am all for sharing of information and am quite enjoying this conversation. Kudos to you for not giving up. You certainly are passionate!

    Andrew: I’m very glad you’re finding this all least somewhat interesting/informational… hopefully at the very least entertaining… though I am upset I couldn’t persuade you!
    I as well, believe cannabis will be legalized in the next 5 years (Thor willing)… I am
    also ‘for’ assisted suicide. Wait, are you from the UK or the US?

    Alice: Well at least you are consistent! I disagree, and doubt you could convince me because of my own religious views about the soul, although I will share openly with you that on an empathetic level I struggle. A girl has gotta stand for somethin’ ya’ know! But………that said…..my views on marijuana are not religious at all, even if it is legal I won’t smoke it. Gosh…….maybe Cheech and Chong could get the Nobel Peace Prize if they were still promoting it today.

    I lived in the UK because my mom is from Scotland, and I went there and married my aunt’s neighbor. Tons of relatives there……some pretty wild relatives if I am honest!

  • andrew

    Coffee… love coffee, but can’t drink more than a cup a day or I get jumpy and my heart races.

    Ha… I had a ‘flash back’ once when I went to see some horror movie… it was scary… (that being said, wouldn’t trade any of those experiences).

    You mention children… my wife just got pregnant and I hope for the love of god there are sensible laws by the time he/she gets to high school. Because of prohibition students have easier access to marijuana than alcohol… which may be good in some cases, in that you don’t hear of a lot of OD’s at high schools (not until they get to college at least)… and even though my first experience was in school, I really, really wish they could control this drug so that it wasn’t SO ubiquitous at my school.
    And I very much sympathize with you being drugged by your brother… ESPECIALLY with LSD. Also with your nephews who are heroin addicts… but don’t you see the sense in separating these markets? Making soft drugs easier to get than hard drugs so that people that do want a safer alternative don’t bump into these people that would like to get them hooked to heroin or crack?

    On a personnel note… my first experience with alcohol, as a teenager, nearly killed me. Sitting around with ‘friends’ that gave me a bottle of vodka to chug, when I was already plaster, wasn’t the best thing… but hey… this stuff is legal… it COULDN’T be worse than the marijuana which I already started using (before alcohol, because, it was easier to obtain… damn liquor cabinet locks!). Well, after being dragged around by them, I don’t recall any memories after that, beyond getting kicked out of a friends home by their parents. I was told I started yelling at the popular girl in the school, professing my love to her… I woke up, with, what I think was vomit all over me, though it was black and rubbery in texture, and a violent hang over (is in dangerous to vomit in your sleep? I’ve never vomited or blackedout using marijuana). I am sure I came pretty close to death that night… it was years after that that I eventually learned how to drink properly, although I can no longer drink any kind of hard liquor… I will vomit almost instantly.

    So, considering that my children may one day experiment with these drugs… for the life of my child, I pray she doesn’t experiment with alcohol until she’s of age (I just realized I keep writing ‘she’… I think I’d like a girl)… or at least experiments in my presence… although I don’t have the same reservations with people smoking marijuana as the consequences are simply not the same…

    Also my grandfather died from a drunk driver (as well as a few classmates)… and two of my Uncles died of related alcohol diseases… at the University I attend there were also a few highly publized deaths related to binge drinking… and I have friends who seem to shake badly when they are drinking… heavy drinkers though…

    Personally, I know, hundreds of marijuana smokers and am very good friends with the majority… and I know of no problems any of them suffer as a result (maybe they aren’t forthcoming?) and some aliments where it actually helps them.

    Surely you see more people that come to you with alcohol related problems much more often than marijuana, no? Also what about the problem of binge drinking among students… what would you say to someone who couldn’t decide whether to go to one party where there is binge drinking going on, or a party where ‘binge pot smoking’ was going on? Based on the existing data that is? Would you give them some stats on alcohol ODs versus marijuana ODs or would you keep that information to yourself?

    I still don’t understand where the disconnect is here between the two of us… we are both ‘highly’ rational individuals… lets make some common ground here! :)

  • andrew

    Alice: She is our second child with cancer……I guess it doesn’t get easier.

    I’m really sorry to hear that! I can’t even begin to imagine what that must be like…

    Alice: Andrew……..do you think maybe after your child is a teenager you may view the world differently?

    I imagine I probably would… but not on this issue.

    Alice: I am thinking you are a Canadian somewhere around 30 years old?

    Wow… spooky… actually 31 so there!

    Alice: please warn your wife that parenthood is complicated when it comes to moms sharing their views.

    Ha… I’ve read some of those cat fights… I’m currently trying to come to my own views regarding how I would raise my child and the opinions out there are vast and vocal!

    Alice: I am easily found on Facebook and Twitter, but I understand your fear of going public.

    I’ve gone public to all my family and friends.. and have starting writing letters to my Members of Parliament. Sometimes I think about how public I HAVE gone, and wonder if I could be targeted or if someone would ‘rat me out’, though those fears are usually fleeting. I think I will look you up!

    Alice: I think viewing firsthand the materials and testimonies from rehab and lives destroyed (and almost everyone there admitted to marijuana use, etc.) means I can’t separate the capability alcohol and marijuana can have on one’s life.

    I appreciate that view, but you must realize that is a very, very biased sample. People lives are ruined by many things… children included… I think the fact that it is less addictive than alcohol, has fewer and less severe withdrawal symptoms and can’t lead to overdose or diseases (you would have me say, ‘not yet proven’ to lead to disease, I imagine) all point to it being much less toxic, easier to stop using, and safer for heavy, one time use, and long term, chronic use. (Not to condone, just to state the facts – I think that distinction is not always recognized)

    Alice: Just trying to figure out how you give pot the credit for his coping skills.

    I don’t, he does. I think he is ADHD or something… can’t keep still, always has to be doing something… very addictive personality… marijuana calms him down so he is not so obnoxious and violent… he says it helps him concentrate. I don’t question him because he is doing so well now-a-days and I am really happy for him.

    Alice: I disagree! But thank you for the challenge. You did well! Maybe we could share a hookah over some curry sometime with our families? I live near Canada, and Andrew is a Scottish name……if that is your real name. You seem like a really nice guy, and I have immensely enjoyed chatting with you.

    Seriously, you smoke hookahs… I never have! But I loves me some curry.
    I am sorry to hear you are not persuaded by science or rational arguments with regards to certain opinions, such as assisted suicide (I think morality is playing into your opinion on marijuana as well, maybe more than you would admit? I was religious once… may one day become religious again… who knows? I think it would be Buddhism… if I had to choose!)

    Well, I enjoyed this too… (still waiting on that other poster to tell me why he’d rather deal with alcohol, benzodiazepenes and hydrocodone rather than marijuana… still seems pretty backwards to me… so I’ll be hanging around for a bit longer)
    :)
    Smiley face is just a ‘:’ followed by a ‘)’. ;)

  • andrew

    “Personally, I know, hundreds of marijuana smokers and am very good friends with the majority… and I know of no problems any of them suffer as a result (maybe they aren’t forthcoming?) and some aliments where it actually helps them.”

    I should mention that these are also mostly high achieving users… scientists, program analysts, a local politician, entrepreneurs, bloggers, a director of IT, chefs, my sister (Ballet dancer with the National Ballet of Canada) an expert on Organized Crime (who actually testified to the Canadian Parliament on the need to legalize marijuana to cripple organize crime violence… James Dubro… i don’t think he would mind me using his name… promotion and all) and many, many musicians.

    My half brother, who used to be addicted to both crack and meth at one time (and stealing cars… just for fun he’d say), is now clean of all hard drugs, out of jail, has a beautiful family (many kids) and a great job… which he credits to the copious amounts of marijuana he smokes… otherwise he says he’d go crazy… (and I believe him, judging from his past).

    The problem with these anecdotal stories is they can be exchanged forever, and consciously or unconsciously people modify the stories to fit there agenda.

    I believe if we just exchanged studies and data, the bigger, more comprehensive studies would simply out weigh the single first time studies or smaller studies or studies with improper controls.

    I, personally, am pretty convinced by the different organizations from around the world that have studied and reviewed the whole field of marijuana research to come to their conclusions.

    “There has never, in history, been a good reason presented for marijuana being illegal,” said Banks. “It’s fundamentally important for people to understand that it’s never been based on the facts. It’s non-toxic, it’s not addictive and has no provable, long-term irreversible effects.”
    - Senator Tommy Banks, Deputy Chair of the Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs.

    “The continued prohibition of cannabis jeopardizes the health and well-being of Canadians much more than does the substance itself.”
    - Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs, 2002. Summary P. 45

  • andrew

    Alice: It’s not the policies pushing anyone, it’s our brains. Let’s face it we like it!

    No, it is a rational decision that using marijuana is much more likely to get you fired than using hard drugs (because of how much easier it is to detect)… I’ve heard people say this many times and I’m not making up the fact that coke and meth leave your system much quicker that marijuana, which can stay in your system for up to a month (am I repeating myself?). The policy is drug testing, the consequence is people consciously switching to hard drugs to avoid getting a positive on a drug test.

    Alice: I didn’t say doctors shouldn’t be a source of information, but I do not believe they should not be forced to do procedures that would break a religious conviction.

    OK, that’s better, I guess… we best not get into the religion or soul thing… (although I hear that children that die go straight to heaven… maybe a policy based on this should… joking…). Doctors that refuse to do certain procedures should have to be upfront regarding their biases… and should legally be required to recommend another physician that would perform said procedures. That being said… the allowance of religious/philosophical beliefs can go too far… what if my religion is against the germ theory of disease, or against washing your hands more than once a day, or believes tumors have souls…?)

    Also, get your tickets… they’re still on tour…
    http://www.cheechandchongtour.com/splash.html

  • http://www.notebookingdiscovery.org/wordpress Alice Robertson

    Andrew: Coffee… love coffee, but can’t drink more than a cup a day or I get jumpy and my heart races.[end]

    Alice: So…..pot takes the edge off your overactive brain? If so, there are legal alternatives, and I hear exercise works wonders too!

    Andrew: Ha… I had a ‘flash back’ once when I went to see some horror movie… it was scary… (that being said, wouldn’t trade any of those experiences). [end]

    Alice: Hmmm………on one level I understand that. Even adversity can make us better people……ya’ know…….worth our pound of pot…….I mean salt!

    Andrew: You mention children… my wife just got pregnant and I hope for the love of god there are sensible laws by the time he/she gets to high school. Because of prohibition students have easier access to marijuana than alcohol… which may be good in some cases, in that you don’t hear of a lot of OD’s at high schools (not until they get to college at least)… and even though my first experience was in school, I really, really wish they could control this drug so that it wasn’t SO ubiquitous at my school.
    And I very much sympathize with you being drugged by your brother… ESPECIALLY with LSD. Also with your nephews who are heroin addicts… but don’t you see the sense in separating these markets? Making soft drugs easier to get than hard drugs so that people that do want a safer alternative don’t bump into these people that would like to get them hooked to heroin or crack? [end]

    Alice: Congratulations! What a wonderful life-changing blessing! Is that “god” with a small “g” or big “G”?

    At this point if it’s mind-altering it may need regulated. Alcohol is regulated to some degree, and I do see a bit of compromise on the alcohol stance (of course, as I shared Timothy Leary had some good points too), so it’s a good edge for you to take. Of course, I don’t drink, but in truth I could easily be a drug addict. Last fall when our daughter’s cancer was found and had spread I had the proverbial hamster on a wheel running so wildly through my brain…….I didn’t sleep for months…..and, actually, found myself wondering what I could do to just stop thinking. I was sorely tempted…..so I am not self-righteous enough to think I could not be an addict of something beyond caffeine. She is our second child with cancer……I guess it doesn’t get easier.

    Andrew: So, considering that my children may one day experiment with these drugs… for the life of my child, I pray she doesn’t experiment with alcohol until she’s of age (I just realized I keep writing ’she’… I think I’d like a girl)… or at least experiments in my presence… although I don’t have the same reservations with people smoking marijuana as the consequences are simply not the same… [end]

    Alice: Andrew……..do you think maybe after your child is a teenager you may view the world differently? I teach literature (actually, I am a homeschooling mom, so I like to pick up clues and I am thinking you are a Canadian somewhere around 30 years old? I not only have a black sense of humor, but like you a curious mind. I understand the fear of proclaiming one’s views online (whether they are illegal or not it’s not like we are talking about a taboo topic). You may have more fans reading this who will not back you up publicly than you actually know about. The doctor who wrote the opening article, obviously, used his name and agrees with you (I doubt he is fearful of losing his job though). Debating anything online can cause great fear (insecurities abound) and lashback (ugh…….memories of cyber catfights abound from my days in the mommy forums…. please warn your wife that parenthood is complicated when it comes to moms sharing their views. If you think debating pot is hard wait until you have decide about homebirth, or breastfeeding, or cloth diapers, or disciplining methods…..egads………being a homeschooling mom from the days it was illegal [I turned myself in and had freedom while my friends hid indoors] means my days of being raked over the coals are over……because…….basically……..I am what I am).
    I am easily found on Facebook and Twitter, but I understand your fear of going public (there can be a cost to even sharing a heartfelt opinion)
    I am sorry about your grandfather’s death, but I do know a few people who have fallen asleep at the wheel while on marijuana (one rolled into an intersection and hit a car….guess it was a very long red light). I understand the hazards of alcohol (my grandfather and bil drank themselves to death), so again……..your point is well-taken…….if you are right on a certain level marijuana should be legalized if alcohol remains legal, but my point is two wrongs don’t make a right. And I hesitate to put it in such terms because it just opens up a debate on alcohol and all the supposed health aspects of the grape.

    Andrew: Personally, I know, hundreds of marijuana smokers and am very good friends with the majority… and I know of no problems any of them suffer as a result (maybe they aren’t forthcoming?) and some aliments where it actually helps them. [end]

    Alice: Stats will back you up…..people like to feel good and that would put pot in the same category as alcohol, but I think you are a bit romantic minded if you think man will use this responsibly and view it as an alternative to alcohol. I tend to think most pot smokers drink while smoking. When I was a teen there was a popular song titled, “Everybody Must Get Stoned” by Bob Dylan! You felt quite rebellious singing it, but I have a healthy respect for what that means, and a dose of personal experience that just made me too terrified of what I am probably capable of. I know my own weaknesses, and the world is simply a better place if I don’t drink or smoke pot. But I don’t think my personal preferences should rule the world.

    Andrew: I still don’t understand where the disconnect is here between the two of us… we are both ‘highly’ rational individuals… lets make some common ground here! [end]

    Alice: First tell me how you got that smiley face at the end………in truth, I am a mom……it’s my strength and my weakness and clouds all I see in this world. An acclimating transformation of the heart takes place when you become a parent…….but I am guessing the author of this piece is a parent to, so again I am using logic as to how it pertains to my own personal bubble.

    It’s not that you aren’t stating your case well…………it’s more that I see the damage done and worry about the long-term affects on the body and society. Maybe it’s overkill on my own part. You state your case against alcohol so well……….but it seems you have underestimated the same affects from marijuana. I think viewing firsthand the materials and testimonies from rehab and lives destroyed (and almost everyone there admitted to marijuana use, etc.) means I can’t separate the capability alcohol and marijuana can have on one’s life.

    Andrew: My half brother, who used to be addicted to both crack and meth at one time (and stealing cars… just for fun he’d say), is now clean of all hard drugs, out of jail, has a beautiful family (many kids) and a great job… which he credits to the copious amounts of marijuana he smokes… otherwise he says he’d go crazy… (and I believe him, judging from his past). [end]

    Alice: Okay………who is using humor to make a point now? Marijuana is at the crux of his success as a father and his career? I have six children and it’s amazing that three are homeschool graduates doing well in this world without alcohol or pot. Gosh………maybe they could be Fulbright scholars if I had just started out our lessons plans with a joint? Teasing! Just trying to figure out how you give pot the credit for his coping skills. Imagine I was able to raise kids, and not lose my mind w/o pot………well……..hmm………I may have lost my mind……umm…….maybe I should visit my brother more often?

    Andrew: The problem with these anecdotal stories is they can be exchanged forever, and consciously or unconsciously people modify the stories to fit there agenda. [end]

    Alice: Yeah, pot smokers have faulty memories………ha!

    Andrew: I believe if we just exchanged studies and data, the bigger, more comprehensive studies would simply out weigh the single first time studies or smaller studies or studies with improper controls.

    Alice: I disagree! But thank you for the challenge. You did well! Maybe we could share a hookah over some curry sometime with our families? I live near Canada, and Andrew is a Scottish name……if that is your real name. You seem like a really nice guy, and I have immensely enjoyed chatting with you.

  • http://www.notebookingdiscovery.org/wordpress Alice Robertson

    Andrew said: OK, that’s better, I guess… we best not get into the religion or soul thing… (although I hear that children that die go straight to heaven… maybe a policy based on this should… joking…). Doctors that refuse to do certain procedures should have to be upfront regarding their biases… and should legally be required to recommend another physician that would perform said procedures. That being said… the allowance of
    religious/philosophical beliefs can go too far… what if my religion is against the germ theory of disease, or against washing your hands more than once a day, or believes tumors
    have souls…?) [end]

    Alice: Ummm………very funny……….tumors with souls…..the pot is definitely hitting your creative side……..LOL………quite good. I think you are definitely of British ancestry! How could a doctor be a doctor without believing in the germ theory? And, yes, I believe all children go to heaven……so your assumption that aborted babies could be best is true…..but I think it’s best to leave the survival of mankind in God’s hands. And I agree a doctor or pharmacist should be upfront, or let someone else fill a prescription for them or do the procedure. I think religious rights are very important, although I realize there can be a limit, it would be rare (i.e. completely covering your identity for religious reasons is controversial). Too bad you don’t have some Indian ancestry…….they have the religious right to toke, and they are definitely worshipping plenty on the reservation in New York I was on.

    Andrew: Also, get your tickets… they’re still on tour…
    http://www.cheechandchongtour.com/splash.html
    [end]

    LOL I don’t like their potty humor! (grin) I imagine the months in jail for selling pot pipes did Tommy Chong a world of good. Ah ha……..I was wrong before…….maybe you are really Tommy Chong under an online pseudonym.

  • Alice

    Alice: I am easily found on Facebook and Twitter, but I understand your fear of going public. [end]

    The hookah was an inviting type of hospitality that I probably wouldn’t engage in (emphasis on “probably” because who knows what we will do…….you know……..when in Rome sometimes we do what the Romans do! Ack! that dark sense of humor doesn’t stop) but my son does smoke it after a meal with his missionary friends from Lebanon. One of them translates for the UN (it’s hard to get trustworthy translators and because he was raised there he speaks the language fluently). He was the translator at the Saddam Hussein trial also. Really interesting stuff and the pay is excellent. But I am getting off-topic……..probably ADD …….which is why I like Twitter.

    The curry wasn’t a joke and I wouldn’t “rat” you out. Actually, I don’t really know how to find myself on Twitter or Facebook. I think on Twitter they bunch your name up and it comes up AliceARobertson, but I am really unsure of much most days. On Facebook you would probably have to use a state which is Ohio. If you want to continue the debate you can e-mail me: arobert6@juno.com

    You probably guessed I love to debate, and you certainly have the fortitude to engage in a good one. It will be fun to watch you debate parental issues as your child grows.

  • Alice

    Andrew said: Well, I enjoyed this too… (still waiting on that other poster to tell me why he’d rather deal with alcohol, benzodiazepenes and hydrocodone rather than marijuana… still seems pretty backwards to me… so I’ll be hanging around for a bit longer) [end]

    Hi! I think this is a good idea. There are a lot of health tips here, and I hope you pick up some preventative strategies for what could be future health problems. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! :)

  • andrew

    Alice: Ah ha……..I was wrong before…….maybe you are really Tommy Chong under an online pseudonym.

    I’m the smart one… Cheech!

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