<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" > <channel><title>Comments on: An oncologist takes on the recent breast and cervical cancer screening controversy</title> <atom:link href="http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html</link> <description></description> <lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:00:00 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" /> <item><title>By: Peter</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121209</link> <dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:01:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121209</guid> <description>Actually, Twain was quoting Disraeli (though it&#039;s uncertain whether he actually coined the phrase).From Wikepedia (yes, it does serve some purpose):Twain popularized the saying in &quot;Chapters from My Autobiography&quot;, published in the North American Review, No. DCXVIII., July 5, 1907. &quot;Figures often beguile me,&quot; he wrote, &quot;particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: &#039;There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.&#039;&quot;[1]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Twain was quoting Disraeli (though it&#8217;s uncertain whether he actually coined the phrase).</p><p>From Wikepedia (yes, it does serve some purpose):</p><p>Twain popularized the saying in &#8220;Chapters from My Autobiography&#8221;, published in the North American Review, No. DCXVIII., July 5, 1907. &#8220;Figures often beguile me,&#8221; he wrote, &#8220;particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: &#8216;There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.&#8217;&#8221;[1]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: skeptikus</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121195</link> <dc:creator>skeptikus</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 13:38:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121195</guid> <description>Uh, that would Mark Twain.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, that would Mark Twain.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Doc99</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121164</link> <dc:creator>Doc99</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 00:11:03 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121164</guid> <description>&quot;There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.&quot; Benjamin Disraeli</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.&#8221;<br /> Benjamin Disraeli</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Diora</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121157</link> <dc:creator>Diora</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 23:04:52 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121157</guid> <description>Also, about the phrase you found insulting. Many a paper by an oncologist, especially when talking to the general public, talks about 5-year survival in the same context as screening. Sometimes it even happens in the research papers. If I have time, I could probably find zillion examples of this. This is what I had in mind when I wrote about oncologists and lead-time bias. Maybe I shouldn&#039;t have said that - I normally try to be nice, but I heard doctors&#039; talk about how early detection increases 5-year survival so many times, and it makes me angry. It is one of my pet peeves.Still, it was absolutly clear from my post that the sentence lead-time bias referred to the example before it and not the one that followed. Honestly, did you really miss what I mean or did your (mis)interpretation of my words was deliberate?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, about the phrase you found insulting. Many a paper by an oncologist, especially when talking to the general public, talks about 5-year survival in the same context as screening. Sometimes it even happens in the research papers. If I have time, I could probably find zillion examples of this. This is what I had in mind when I wrote about oncologists and lead-time bias. Maybe I shouldn&#8217;t have said that &#8211; I normally try to be nice, but I heard doctors&#8217; talk about how early detection increases 5-year survival so many times, and it makes me angry. It is one of my pet peeves.</p><p>Still, it was absolutly clear from my post that the sentence lead-time bias referred to the example before it and not the one that followed. Honestly, did you really miss what I mean or did your (mis)interpretation of my words was deliberate?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Diora</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121156</link> <dc:creator>Diora</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:40:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121156</guid> <description>I didn&#039;t say this was lead time bias. These were different sentences and different examples. Here is what I said: &quot;They see a early case of cancer and they see that the person survives longer. Is it because of early detection or because of lead-time bias? ...&quot; This is what I said. The length of survival after diagnosis is affected by lead-time bias. The sentence you mention came later and was clearly a different thought. Maybe it should&#039;ve been a different paragraph.Of course, taking two different sentences out of context and deliberately misenterpreting them is one way to discredit someone you talk with...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say this was lead time bias. These were different sentences and different examples.<br /> Here is what I said:<br /> &#8220;They see a early case of cancer and they see that the person survives longer. Is it because of early detection or because of lead-time bias? &#8230;&#8221;<br /> This is what I said. The length of survival after diagnosis is affected by lead-time bias. The sentence you mention came later and was clearly a different thought. Maybe it should&#8217;ve been a different paragraph.</p><p>Of course, taking two different sentences out of context and deliberately misenterpreting them is one way to discredit someone you talk with&#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: joe</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121149</link> <dc:creator>joe</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:24:07 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121149</guid> <description>&quot;..cured because it is detected early or was it detected early because it was slow growing or even not growing at all?&quot; A Diora, that is length time bias not lead time bias in a screening exam. Anybody here actually read the JCO? Almost, every paper is full of stats and has statistician involvement. Spend a little more time reading before insulting.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;..cured because it is detected early or was it detected early because it was slow growing or even not growing at all?&#8221;<br /> A Diora, that is length time bias not lead time bias in a screening exam. Anybody here actually read the JCO? Almost, every paper is full of stats and has statistician involvement. Spend a little more time reading before insulting.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Diora</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121075</link> <dc:creator>Diora</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:14:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121075</guid> <description>Frank Coburn - the experts in the field of evaluating data from studies or designing studies and models are not oncologists but epidemiologists i.e. people with expertise in biostatistics.If you have an MI, you&#039;d go to cardiologist, and the cardiologist will treat you and maybe prescribe you a drug to prevent another MI. However, it&#039;s not cardiologists but statisticians who evaluated data from studies of this drug and determined that it worked. Since the cardiologist only sees individual cases, he or she cannot determine if the drug works or if his patients&#039; didn&#039;t have another heart attack because of the drug but for some other reason such as for example lifestyle changes, luck or something else. This determination can be made by experts whose job is to design the studies in a way that would eliminate confounding factors, but also to evaluate the data, correlate the information, adjust for biases. Cardiologists aren&#039;t trained to do it, it&#039;s not their job.Similarly with studies of screening. Oncologists see individual cases. They see a early case of cancer and they see that the person survives longer. Is it because of early detection or because of lead-time bias? The oncologist wouldn&#039;t know that since this cannot be determined by simply treating individual cases, but an oncologist would love to think that it was because of early detection. Frankly, judging from some of the oncologists&#039; opinions, some of them cannot even spell lead-time bias... Similarly, is a particular cancer cured because it is detected early or was it detected early because it was slow growing or even not growing at all? Not only oncologists cannot determine it based on individual cases they see, they aren&#039;t exactly objective. Nobody wants to think they harmed someone by treating them unnecessarily, it is much more pleasant to believe they cured the person. But even with all the best intention, only by evaluating large amount of data, analyzing the data for biases, correlating the data can these things be determined. Oncologists aren&#039;t experts in determining if screening save lives or just detects cancers or some combination of this. It&#039;s simply not their job.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank Coburn &#8211; the experts in the field of evaluating data from studies or designing studies and models are not oncologists but epidemiologists i.e. people with expertise in biostatistics.</p><p>If you have an MI, you&#8217;d go to cardiologist, and the cardiologist will treat you and maybe prescribe you a drug to prevent another MI. However, it&#8217;s not cardiologists but statisticians who evaluated data from studies of this drug and determined that it worked. Since the cardiologist only sees individual cases, he or she cannot determine if the drug works or if his patients&#8217; didn&#8217;t have another heart attack because of the drug but for some other reason such as for example lifestyle changes, luck or something else. This determination can be made by experts whose job is to design the studies in a way that would eliminate confounding factors, but also to evaluate the data, correlate the information, adjust for biases. Cardiologists aren&#8217;t trained to do it, it&#8217;s not their job.</p><p>Similarly with studies of screening. Oncologists see individual cases. They see a early case of cancer and they see that the person survives longer. Is it because of early detection or because of lead-time bias? The oncologist wouldn&#8217;t know that since this cannot be determined by simply treating individual cases, but an oncologist would love to think that it was because of early detection. Frankly, judging from some of the oncologists&#8217; opinions, some of them cannot even spell lead-time bias&#8230; Similarly, is a particular cancer cured because it is detected early or was it detected early because it was slow growing or even not growing at all? Not only oncologists cannot determine it based on individual cases they see, they aren&#8217;t exactly objective. Nobody wants to think they harmed someone by treating them unnecessarily, it is much more pleasant to believe they cured the person. But even with all the best intention, only by evaluating large amount of data, analyzing the data for biases, correlating the data can these things be determined. Oncologists aren&#8217;t experts in determining if screening save lives or just detects cancers or some combination of this. It&#8217;s simply not their job.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: skeptikus</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121069</link> <dc:creator>skeptikus</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 03:29:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121069</guid> <description>No one says &quot;experts&quot; from a field should be excluded from anything.  However, medical specialty organizations are not &quot;experts.&quot;  They are political entities that respond to their members&#039; needs and desires.  Not always and not perfectly--here ACOG recommends less screening.  But, the profit motive is always present in doctors&#039; advice--and to fail to recognize it foolish and naive.Further, oncologists are not statisticians.  They are not equipped nor trained to see the big picture.  Of course, the big picture is only part of deciding a course of treatment, i.e., individual difference can be determinative, not population averages.  However, for recommending global guidelines the big picture is most important--and more important than any practitioner&#039;s puny perspective.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one says &#8220;experts&#8221; from a field should be excluded from anything.  However, medical specialty organizations are not &#8220;experts.&#8221;  They are political entities that respond to their members&#8217; needs and desires.  Not always and not perfectly&#8211;here ACOG recommends less screening.  But, the profit motive is always present in doctors&#8217; advice&#8211;and to fail to recognize it foolish and naive.</p><p>Further, oncologists are not statisticians.  They are not equipped nor trained to see the big picture.  Of course, the big picture is only part of deciding a course of treatment, i.e., individual difference can be determinative, not population averages.  However, for recommending global guidelines the big picture is most important&#8211;and more important than any practitioner&#8217;s puny perspective.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Frank Coburn</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121066</link> <dc:creator>Frank Coburn</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:00:13 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121066</guid> <description>So oncologists should not be trusted to give opinions regarding cancer screening and treatment because they treat cancer for a living and might profit from the results. Ok fair enough. I assume this also applies to other specialties as well. Maybe next time I think I might be having an MI I&#039;ll get a second opinion from a neurologist to make sure the cardiologist isn&#039;t trying to line his pockets by cathing me.Does anyone else find this line of reasoning absurd? The idea that experts from a field should be excluded from practice guideline decisions is misguided. The only other organization I can think of that adopts this line of reasoning is Congress.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So oncologists should not be trusted to give opinions regarding cancer screening and treatment because they treat cancer for a living and might profit from the results. Ok fair enough. I assume this also applies to other specialties as well. Maybe next time I think I might be having an MI I&#8217;ll get a second opinion from a neurologist to make sure the cardiologist isn&#8217;t trying to line his pockets by cathing me.</p><p>Does anyone else find this line of reasoning absurd? The idea that experts from a field should be excluded from practice guideline decisions is misguided. The only other organization I can think of that adopts this line of reasoning is Congress.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: jsmith</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/12/oncologist-takes-breast-cervical-cancer-screening-controversy.html#comment-121046</link> <dc:creator>jsmith</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:23:58 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=41600#comment-121046</guid> <description>Agree with posts 2 and 3.  I prefer epidemiologists to oncologists on this issue.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with posts 2 and 3.  I prefer epidemiologists to oncologists on this issue.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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