<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: What does socialism have to do with the health care reform debate?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html</link>
	<description>medical blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:04:06 -0400</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: David Alway</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-113437</link>
		<dc:creator>David Alway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-113437</guid>
		<description>Paynehertz,

Your views on socialism are off the mark, in my opinion,  but your views about the current medical system, while hyperbolic, point out many real flaws with the system that should be corrected.  You talk about the physicians&#039; monopoly - we&#039;ll I&#039;m against this as well.  I&#039;m ready to eliminate the barriers to a true free market and to take the consequences.  I believe this physician monopoly may also underlie why you seem to be getting such poor service for your particular pain problem.  (That, combined with a DEA that arbitrarily prosecutes physicians for &#039;overprescribing narcotics&#039;, the whole war on drugs mentality, and the lack of objective measures of pain).

In my opinion, it should be legal for you to obtain whatever drug someone else wishes to sell you - with the physician acting solely as adviser (not controller) of such drugs (and that, only if you wanted him/her to be involved).

Did you miss the point regarding Robinson Crusoe?  It was pointing out the parasitic view of rights inherent in those who speak of a right to health care.

The point is that rights are meant to be freedoms of action, not guarantees of results.  You are supposed to have the right to take actions to preserve your life, to get and keep property, to pursue your own happiness.  No result is guaranteed.  Happiness is not guaranteed.  Those who claim the &#039;right&#039; to having health care provided to them (instead of the right simply to pursue their own health care by voluntary trade with others), are actually claiming the right to force others to provide it for them - at the point of a gun if necessary.  So in the end, a &#039;right&#039; to have health care provided to you is a fundamental violation of the rights of everyone.  It pits man against man in deep conflict.  Not exactly leading to the harmony we are all trying to achieve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paynehertz,</p>
<p>Your views on socialism are off the mark, in my opinion,  but your views about the current medical system, while hyperbolic, point out many real flaws with the system that should be corrected.  You talk about the physicians&#8217; monopoly &#8211; we&#8217;ll I&#8217;m against this as well.  I&#8217;m ready to eliminate the barriers to a true free market and to take the consequences.  I believe this physician monopoly may also underlie why you seem to be getting such poor service for your particular pain problem.  (That, combined with a DEA that arbitrarily prosecutes physicians for &#8216;overprescribing narcotics&#8217;, the whole war on drugs mentality, and the lack of objective measures of pain).</p>
<p>In my opinion, it should be legal for you to obtain whatever drug someone else wishes to sell you &#8211; with the physician acting solely as adviser (not controller) of such drugs (and that, only if you wanted him/her to be involved).</p>
<p>Did you miss the point regarding Robinson Crusoe?  It was pointing out the parasitic view of rights inherent in those who speak of a right to health care.</p>
<p>The point is that rights are meant to be freedoms of action, not guarantees of results.  You are supposed to have the right to take actions to preserve your life, to get and keep property, to pursue your own happiness.  No result is guaranteed.  Happiness is not guaranteed.  Those who claim the &#8216;right&#8217; to having health care provided to them (instead of the right simply to pursue their own health care by voluntary trade with others), are actually claiming the right to force others to provide it for them &#8211; at the point of a gun if necessary.  So in the end, a &#8216;right&#8217; to have health care provided to you is a fundamental violation of the rights of everyone.  It pits man against man in deep conflict.  Not exactly leading to the harmony we are all trying to achieve.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cindy Rohr</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-113403</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Rohr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-113403</guid>
		<description>Actually that description fits what a socialist would do not a capitalist.  You are forgetting two very important concepts that are part of a pure capitalistic society called “property rights” and “individual rights”.  Yes between the new individual and Robinson Crusoe they would have to come to some kind of agreement as to what portion of the island they can each have.  Once they each have there own portion of the island they are each free to pursue there own livelihood and happiness based on there own ability like getting as much fish, coconuts, medical plants etc.  They are also free to trade with one another or not deal with one another at all.  If the new individual has a knowledge of medicine and wants to spend his time investigating the medical plants available on the island to help with his own health and Robinson Crusoe he can now offer his services to Robinson Crusoe in exchange for additional fish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually that description fits what a socialist would do not a capitalist.  You are forgetting two very important concepts that are part of a pure capitalistic society called “property rights” and “individual rights”.  Yes between the new individual and Robinson Crusoe they would have to come to some kind of agreement as to what portion of the island they can each have.  Once they each have there own portion of the island they are each free to pursue there own livelihood and happiness based on there own ability like getting as much fish, coconuts, medical plants etc.  They are also free to trade with one another or not deal with one another at all.  If the new individual has a knowledge of medicine and wants to spend his time investigating the medical plants available on the island to help with his own health and Robinson Crusoe he can now offer his services to Robinson Crusoe in exchange for additional fish.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paynehertz</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-113324</link>
		<dc:creator>Paynehertz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 13:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-113324</guid>
		<description>&quot;Q: How does Robinson Crusoe enforce his supposed “right to health care (or food or housing or a secure retirement or …)”?&quot;

Robinson Crusoe has the right to everything that exists on his Island right up to the point some capitalist shows up with &quot;men with guns&quot; to claim &quot;ownership&quot; over his island. Up to then, he can sleep anywhere he wants, eat whatever he picks, and freely use whatever medicinal plants he find on the island. He is subject only to the limits imposed by nature, his own abilities, and the technology he has at hand. 

Once the capitalist comes along, Crusoe no longer has any &quot;rights&quot; to anything, but the right to work for the capitalist, who claims ownership over the whole isand and all its resources, including all the fish, coconuts, medicinal plants, and real estate. If Crusoe wants to eat a fish, he has to catch at least 6 more to pay the &quot;owner&quot; for the right. If we wants to sleep, he has to pay rent on whatever place he places his head down. The medicinal plants that grow freely on the island are definitely off-limits, and he will have to pay with his labor for the right to use the plants and be severely restricted in their use, as over-indulgence makes him a less-productive worker bee and the capitalist will not allow this.

So that&#039;s how Crusoe exercises his rights, and how he loses them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Q: How does Robinson Crusoe enforce his supposed “right to health care (or food or housing or a secure retirement or …)”?&#8221;</p>
<p>Robinson Crusoe has the right to everything that exists on his Island right up to the point some capitalist shows up with &#8220;men with guns&#8221; to claim &#8220;ownership&#8221; over his island. Up to then, he can sleep anywhere he wants, eat whatever he picks, and freely use whatever medicinal plants he find on the island. He is subject only to the limits imposed by nature, his own abilities, and the technology he has at hand. </p>
<p>Once the capitalist comes along, Crusoe no longer has any &#8220;rights&#8221; to anything, but the right to work for the capitalist, who claims ownership over the whole isand and all its resources, including all the fish, coconuts, medicinal plants, and real estate. If Crusoe wants to eat a fish, he has to catch at least 6 more to pay the &#8220;owner&#8221; for the right. If we wants to sleep, he has to pay rent on whatever place he places his head down. The medicinal plants that grow freely on the island are definitely off-limits, and he will have to pay with his labor for the right to use the plants and be severely restricted in their use, as over-indulgence makes him a less-productive worker bee and the capitalist will not allow this.</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s how Crusoe exercises his rights, and how he loses them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paynehertz</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-113292</link>
		<dc:creator>Paynehertz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 00:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-113292</guid>
		<description>A picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.sinkers.org/posters/capitalismworksbest/capitalismworksbest.jpg

I don&#039;t think many of the people screaming &quot;Socialism!&quot; at any attempts to fix our system would be happy in a true free market capitalist system. Gone would be government subsidies for medical insurance, medical and pharmaceutical research, and medical education, the fruits of which our doctor caste are allowed to sell back to us at monopoly prices. Gone also would be prescriptions, medical licensing and any other government-imposed restrictions of the free exchange of medical products and services which protect the monopoly rents which are the primary drivers of medical cost in this and every other country, including those with &quot;socialized&quot; medical care. Back in the days when there was no evil &quot;socialism,&quot; doctors earned scarcely more money than housepainters and had to hustle their butts from house to house to generate revenue.

As a chronic pain patient, in a true free market system I could pay $10 bucks for an online consultation with a doctor in India and then order my medications without a prescription from wherever for a fraction of the cost I&#039;d pay here, so why the hell would I spend thousands of dollars for abuse, humiliation, ass-covering, scare-mongering and no treatment which is what I get from the capitalist-induced kleptocratic monopoly system in this country?

Suddenly, if you doctors wanted my business, you&#039;d have to actually be competent and treat me with respect. Now, you can be incompetent, indifferent and abusive, because you have me, and millions of other Americans, by the short-rabbits due to your monopoly over medical care and drugs.

So you want free market? Yeah, this anarchist says bring it on, baby. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, as you may get what you deserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A picture is worth a thousand words:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sinkers.org/posters/capitalismworksbest/capitalismworksbest.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.sinkers.org/posters/capitalismworksbest/capitalismworksbest.jpg</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think many of the people screaming &#8220;Socialism!&#8221; at any attempts to fix our system would be happy in a true free market capitalist system. Gone would be government subsidies for medical insurance, medical and pharmaceutical research, and medical education, the fruits of which our doctor caste are allowed to sell back to us at monopoly prices. Gone also would be prescriptions, medical licensing and any other government-imposed restrictions of the free exchange of medical products and services which protect the monopoly rents which are the primary drivers of medical cost in this and every other country, including those with &#8220;socialized&#8221; medical care. Back in the days when there was no evil &#8220;socialism,&#8221; doctors earned scarcely more money than housepainters and had to hustle their butts from house to house to generate revenue.</p>
<p>As a chronic pain patient, in a true free market system I could pay $10 bucks for an online consultation with a doctor in India and then order my medications without a prescription from wherever for a fraction of the cost I&#8217;d pay here, so why the hell would I spend thousands of dollars for abuse, humiliation, ass-covering, scare-mongering and no treatment which is what I get from the capitalist-induced kleptocratic monopoly system in this country?</p>
<p>Suddenly, if you doctors wanted my business, you&#8217;d have to actually be competent and treat me with respect. Now, you can be incompetent, indifferent and abusive, because you have me, and millions of other Americans, by the short-rabbits due to your monopoly over medical care and drugs.</p>
<p>So you want free market? Yeah, this anarchist says bring it on, baby. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, as you may get what you deserve.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sarah G</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-112937</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-112937</guid>
		<description>In the socialist system proposed, wouldn&#039;t it be considered unpatriotic to smoke or become obese? Just thinking...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the socialist system proposed, wouldn&#8217;t it be considered unpatriotic to smoke or become obese? Just thinking&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: KipEsquire</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-112913</link>
		<dc:creator>KipEsquire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-112913</guid>
		<description>Q: How does Robinson Crusoe enforce his supposed &quot;right to health care (or food or housing or a secure retirement or ...)&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Q: How does Robinson Crusoe enforce his supposed &#8220;right to health care (or food or housing or a secure retirement or &#8230;)&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ayse</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-112853</link>
		<dc:creator>Ayse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-112853</guid>
		<description>evanx:
i totally agree that lowering dr./hospital reimbursements would not come even close to solving our rising health care cost - that would be a very ineffective and possibly harmful bandaid, especially if the current system of reimbursement is left unchanged. what i don&#039;t agree with is that seeing gov&#039;t as an evil in the reform discussion. some people blame the gov programs such as medicare and medicaid for the current health care cost mess. i think this is a knee-jerk reaction for it does not address the root of the problem. even in a perfect market environment, the prices would still go up because of the consumer attitudes. in many developed countries, the cost of care is lower not because the services are rationed (because some still have the option to purchase these services out-of-pocket) but the citizens of these countries in general have different expectations from their medical services. 

i am not saying that i am in favor of a total gov&#039;t run health care but i believe there should be some form of gov mediation. historically, a perfect-market system did not work well for the medical profession and the patients. what individual physician has the time and money to market him/herself? i personally like a system similar to what david goldhill was offering as an idea in his article in atlantic http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>evanx:<br />
i totally agree that lowering dr./hospital reimbursements would not come even close to solving our rising health care cost &#8211; that would be a very ineffective and possibly harmful bandaid, especially if the current system of reimbursement is left unchanged. what i don&#8217;t agree with is that seeing gov&#8217;t as an evil in the reform discussion. some people blame the gov programs such as medicare and medicaid for the current health care cost mess. i think this is a knee-jerk reaction for it does not address the root of the problem. even in a perfect market environment, the prices would still go up because of the consumer attitudes. in many developed countries, the cost of care is lower not because the services are rationed (because some still have the option to purchase these services out-of-pocket) but the citizens of these countries in general have different expectations from their medical services. </p>
<p>i am not saying that i am in favor of a total gov&#8217;t run health care but i believe there should be some form of gov mediation. historically, a perfect-market system did not work well for the medical profession and the patients. what individual physician has the time and money to market him/herself? i personally like a system similar to what david goldhill was offering as an idea in his article in atlantic <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care." rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care.</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-112787</link>
		<dc:creator>Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-112787</guid>
		<description>Without the availability of pricing for any and all services &amp; proceedures we will not have this utopia of capitalistic health care that anti-reformers are touting.  Provide us with a health care equivalent of the Mulrooney sticker and we might have half a chance.  When I go to buy a refrigerator I have more information available to me about the cost and when I will get it than I do going to the doctor for a simple check-up.  And if the refrigerator arrives damaged I can return it for another--if the doctor messes up (unless it is a serious and grievous error) I just have to see another doctor and pay even more money to fix the mistake-where is  the market place in effect there.  If you are in the health care industry are you willing to put your money where your mouth is--how about some time guarantees?  How about some refund system when a surgery or procedure doesn&#039;t work?  You want true competition--then have true competition-not this smoke and mirrors system you have now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without the availability of pricing for any and all services &amp; proceedures we will not have this utopia of capitalistic health care that anti-reformers are touting.  Provide us with a health care equivalent of the Mulrooney sticker and we might have half a chance.  When I go to buy a refrigerator I have more information available to me about the cost and when I will get it than I do going to the doctor for a simple check-up.  And if the refrigerator arrives damaged I can return it for another&#8211;if the doctor messes up (unless it is a serious and grievous error) I just have to see another doctor and pay even more money to fix the mistake-where is  the market place in effect there.  If you are in the health care industry are you willing to put your money where your mouth is&#8211;how about some time guarantees?  How about some refund system when a surgery or procedure doesn&#8217;t work?  You want true competition&#8211;then have true competition-not this smoke and mirrors system you have now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cindy Rohr</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-112782</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Rohr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-112782</guid>
		<description>Great Article! I couldn&#039;t agree with you more that capitalism is the proper moral system.  It is the only system that truely protects the individual to FREELY trade with other individuals and gives every individual no matter what there situation is in life rich or poor the opportunity to a better life.  I would much rather live under a system where I am in full control over my own life and being than to have someone else who I didn&#039;t choose make decisions about my life.  Important decisions about my health care for example should be between me and the doctor of my choosing not bureaucrats in Washington.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Article! I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more that capitalism is the proper moral system.  It is the only system that truely protects the individual to FREELY trade with other individuals and gives every individual no matter what there situation is in life rich or poor the opportunity to a better life.  I would much rather live under a system where I am in full control over my own life and being than to have someone else who I didn&#8217;t choose make decisions about my life.  Important decisions about my health care for example should be between me and the doctor of my choosing not bureaucrats in Washington.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Evinx</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/socialism-health-care-reform-debate.html/comment-page-3#comment-112760</link>
		<dc:creator>Evinx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 02:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=40243#comment-112760</guid>
		<description>Ayse,
Everyone would like less to be spent. That is the easy part.
What evidence is there that a govt reform plan as proposed (either HR3200 or Baucus) would lower costs?  
One has to look at how do you lower costs? In the private sector, more competition and innovation force increases in productivity which ultimately lower costs. So now, what govt program has actually lowered costs? I would hope you would agree that simply lowering dr + hospital reimbursement rates is not a viable, long term solution.
ALL OTHER ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS ARE OUT OF CONTROL! Why would adding or expanding health care lead one to believe it will lower costs? Where is an example? some evidence, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ayse,<br />
Everyone would like less to be spent. That is the easy part.<br />
What evidence is there that a govt reform plan as proposed (either HR3200 or Baucus) would lower costs?<br />
One has to look at how do you lower costs? In the private sector, more competition and innovation force increases in productivity which ultimately lower costs. So now, what govt program has actually lowered costs? I would hope you would agree that simply lowering dr + hospital reimbursement rates is not a viable, long term solution.<br />
ALL OTHER ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS ARE OUT OF CONTROL! Why would adding or expanding health care lead one to believe it will lower costs? Where is an example? some evidence, please.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk
Page Caching using disk (user agent is rejected)
Database Caching 1/19 queries in 0.024 seconds using disk

Served from: www.kevinmd.com @ 2010-03-21 10:43:04 -->