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	<title>Comments on: How can you convince doctors to limit care?</title>
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	<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html</link>
	<description>medical blog</description>
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		<title>By: Hospitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111356</link>
		<dc:creator>Hospitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 08:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111356</guid>
		<description>SarahW-

&quot;Not. your. job. And it never will be.
Your job is to offer optimal care, for an INDIVIDUAL patient’s INDIVIDUAL circumstances, always.&quot;

What about that fourth principle of ethics that we so often ignore - social justice? Healthcare is a limited resource whether we like it or not. We focus so much on autonomy that we do so at the expense of social justice. We allow some people to have &quot;everything&quot; which may leave nothing for others. While I advocate for my patients to the best of my ability, I do think that doctors AND patients need to be more aware of the limited resources we have and the need for allocation to acheive social justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SarahW-</p>
<p>&#8220;Not. your. job. And it never will be.<br />
Your job is to offer optimal care, for an INDIVIDUAL patient’s INDIVIDUAL circumstances, always.&#8221;</p>
<p>What about that fourth principle of ethics that we so often ignore &#8211; social justice? Healthcare is a limited resource whether we like it or not. We focus so much on autonomy that we do so at the expense of social justice. We allow some people to have &#8220;everything&#8221; which may leave nothing for others. While I advocate for my patients to the best of my ability, I do think that doctors AND patients need to be more aware of the limited resources we have and the need for allocation to acheive social justice.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111285</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 18:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111285</guid>
		<description>&quot;The physician is part owner in a multi-specialty group.&quot;

Thus representing less than 10% of practicing American physicians?  Give it up.  Greedy doctors are not the reason for overtesting.  A culture of CYA and &quot;do everything possible&quot; has emerged from a combination of the most lawsuit-happy system in the world and aggressive marketing of technology.  Changing that culture will only happen if either the malpractice system changes or the government imposes strict limits on what it will pay for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The physician is part owner in a multi-specialty group.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thus representing less than 10% of practicing American physicians?  Give it up.  Greedy doctors are not the reason for overtesting.  A culture of CYA and &#8220;do everything possible&#8221; has emerged from a combination of the most lawsuit-happy system in the world and aggressive marketing of technology.  Changing that culture will only happen if either the malpractice system changes or the government imposes strict limits on what it will pay for.</p>
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		<title>By: christophil, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111278</link>
		<dc:creator>christophil, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111278</guid>
		<description>How to limit care? Well, just establish an internet database with treatment protocols and evidenced based best practices of course. Then clerks can input patients symptoms and in return receive an individualized treatment plan. Then only tests &quot;approved&quot; by big brother will get ordered. 

Patients won&#039;t be able to stomp their feet and demand &quot;more be done&quot;, they can&#039;t argue with a computer after all. Docs won&#039;t get sued, we would just be following protocol after all. Cover-your-a** orders won&#039;t be needed. Docs would only be sued if they deviate from e-standard of care and deviation (i.e. thought) wouldn&#039;t be allowed.
Since inappropriate or redundant tests won&#039;t be allowed, risk and guilt-free limited care will result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How to limit care? Well, just establish an internet database with treatment protocols and evidenced based best practices of course. Then clerks can input patients symptoms and in return receive an individualized treatment plan. Then only tests &#8220;approved&#8221; by big brother will get ordered. </p>
<p>Patients won&#8217;t be able to stomp their feet and demand &#8220;more be done&#8221;, they can&#8217;t argue with a computer after all. Docs won&#8217;t get sued, we would just be following protocol after all. Cover-your-a** orders won&#8217;t be needed. Docs would only be sued if they deviate from e-standard of care and deviation (i.e. thought) wouldn&#8217;t be allowed.<br />
Since inappropriate or redundant tests won&#8217;t be allowed, risk and guilt-free limited care will result.</p>
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		<title>By: SarahW</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111256</link>
		<dc:creator>SarahW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 01:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111256</guid>
		<description>Not. your. job.   And it never will be.  
Your job is to offer optimal care, for an INDIVIDUAL patient&#039;s INDIVIDUAL circumstances, always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not. your. job.   And it never will be.<br />
Your job is to offer optimal care, for an INDIVIDUAL patient&#8217;s INDIVIDUAL circumstances, always.</p>
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		<title>By: DVT</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111249</link>
		<dc:creator>DVT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111249</guid>
		<description>&quot;would you have sued if you wound up with an undiagnosed PE? be honest.&quot;

I have been misdiagnosed 5 times, two of which lead to a permament disability.  I didn&#039;t sue.  The one that showed compassion is still on my medical team despite his mistake.  Perhaps I should sue the others.

If I had an undiagnosed PE and died, I don&#039;t think I would sue.

Of course, you point above is that patients drive unnecessary cost.  (Is piece of mind for a scared individual really unnecessary as you imply?)  I didn&#039;t ask for the CT and the doctor is responsible for the unnecessary CT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;would you have sued if you wound up with an undiagnosed PE? be honest.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have been misdiagnosed 5 times, two of which lead to a permament disability.  I didn&#8217;t sue.  The one that showed compassion is still on my medical team despite his mistake.  Perhaps I should sue the others.</p>
<p>If I had an undiagnosed PE and died, I don&#8217;t think I would sue.</p>
<p>Of course, you point above is that patients drive unnecessary cost.  (Is piece of mind for a scared individual really unnecessary as you imply?)  I didn&#8217;t ask for the CT and the doctor is responsible for the unnecessary CT.</p>
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		<title>By: me</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111235</link>
		<dc:creator>me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111235</guid>
		<description>would you have sued if you wound up with an undiagnosed PE? be honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>would you have sued if you wound up with an undiagnosed PE? be honest.</p>
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		<title>By: DVT</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111228</link>
		<dc:creator>DVT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111228</guid>
		<description>&quot;the physician who ordered the CT didn’t make one red cent by doing so.&quot;

The physician is part owner in a multi-specialty group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the physician who ordered the CT didn’t make one red cent by doing so.&#8221;</p>
<p>The physician is part owner in a multi-specialty group.</p>
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		<title>By: R Watkins</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111219</link>
		<dc:creator>R Watkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111219</guid>
		<description>DVT:

Unless you were seeing a radiologist for diagnosis and treatment of your DVT, the physician who ordered the CT didn&#039;t make one red cent by doing so. This is a classic example of CYA medicine, and it is an enormous burden on the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DVT:</p>
<p>Unless you were seeing a radiologist for diagnosis and treatment of your DVT, the physician who ordered the CT didn&#8217;t make one red cent by doing so. This is a classic example of CYA medicine, and it is an enormous burden on the system.</p>
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		<title>By: newsdoc</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111215</link>
		<dc:creator>newsdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111215</guid>
		<description>This is another example that if you say something enough and long enough it must be true. It might have been true a long time ago. Primary care physician rarely see a financial benefit from ordering more tests. Stark laws made it almost impossible for doctors to own outside entities and use them. HMOs, PPOs and other insurance insist that for their paitents, certain labs and radiology and hospitals be used. If the clinic has a lab or Xray the fee paid by the HMO covers that service--no matter how often they use it (capitation). They also must approve all expensive tests like MRIs and CTs. Medicaid also must preapprove these tests. As noted above the patient often insists soemtimes even with threats that tests be done. There is also the tort protection aspect which is why tort reform would help. The doctor gets no more money but avoids the time consuming and emotion draining suits, even if frivilous. CVS is offering flu shots now. So patients can choose to get their shot too early (protection may not last season) and even if they don&#039;t need it. In the meantime doctor&#039;s offices won&#039;t get it until later and often are not supplied enough for their sicker population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is another example that if you say something enough and long enough it must be true. It might have been true a long time ago. Primary care physician rarely see a financial benefit from ordering more tests. Stark laws made it almost impossible for doctors to own outside entities and use them. HMOs, PPOs and other insurance insist that for their paitents, certain labs and radiology and hospitals be used. If the clinic has a lab or Xray the fee paid by the HMO covers that service&#8211;no matter how often they use it (capitation). They also must approve all expensive tests like MRIs and CTs. Medicaid also must preapprove these tests. As noted above the patient often insists soemtimes even with threats that tests be done. There is also the tort protection aspect which is why tort reform would help. The doctor gets no more money but avoids the time consuming and emotion draining suits, even if frivilous. CVS is offering flu shots now. So patients can choose to get their shot too early (protection may not last season) and even if they don&#8217;t need it. In the meantime doctor&#8217;s offices won&#8217;t get it until later and often are not supplied enough for their sicker population.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Mary Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/09/convince-doctors-limit-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-111199</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Mary Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39676#comment-111199</guid>
		<description>What Dr. Grumpy said.  And it&#039;s not all about the doctors.

There seems to be an increase - over the last few years - especially in Pediatrics - of people/family members coming into the hospital/ED and making a scene/copping an attitude/causing a stink/threatening to sue - in order to get what they want - never mind that they often don&#039;t really know what they want.  

It oftentimes interferes with the care of the patient.  If a staff member (nurse/doctor/whatever) is afraid to walk into a room for fear of getting their head chewed off, they&#039;re going to avoid the room. 

A good portion of the time, those exhibiting the worst behavior are on public assistance and do not want to pay for any of the expensive/unnecessary things they want (and I&#039;m sorry, if you really want to talk about reform, this is an expectation now passing from generation to generation that the government has bred).    

The doctor/staff caves (be it with ordering labs/tests or transferring someone somewhere they don&#039;t need to go) just to keep the peace/get through the day and try to take care of the patient.

In effect, bad behavior is rewarded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Dr. Grumpy said.  And it&#8217;s not all about the doctors.</p>
<p>There seems to be an increase &#8211; over the last few years &#8211; especially in Pediatrics &#8211; of people/family members coming into the hospital/ED and making a scene/copping an attitude/causing a stink/threatening to sue &#8211; in order to get what they want &#8211; never mind that they often don&#8217;t really know what they want.  </p>
<p>It oftentimes interferes with the care of the patient.  If a staff member (nurse/doctor/whatever) is afraid to walk into a room for fear of getting their head chewed off, they&#8217;re going to avoid the room. </p>
<p>A good portion of the time, those exhibiting the worst behavior are on public assistance and do not want to pay for any of the expensive/unnecessary things they want (and I&#8217;m sorry, if you really want to talk about reform, this is an expectation now passing from generation to generation that the government has bred).    </p>
<p>The doctor/staff caves (be it with ordering labs/tests or transferring someone somewhere they don&#8217;t need to go) just to keep the peace/get through the day and try to take care of the patient.</p>
<p>In effect, bad behavior is rewarded.</p>
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