<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" > <channel><title>Comments on: Should the informed consent discussion be formally taught?</title> <atom:link href="http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html</link> <description></description> <lastBuildDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:27:00 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" /> <item><title>By: Susan H</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#comment-110155</link> <dc:creator>Susan H</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:39:47 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39581#comment-110155</guid> <description>Joe the PatientI went to obtain an informed consent, And explain to the patient what that meant, I spent the next several moments explaining Concepts I’d learned over eight years of training. The patient said: “Fine, I am ready to sign, Just inform me what this procedure will cost”. And I had to admit I was lost.I can lecture on stents ‘til my face turns cyanotic, Diagram how we treat flat lines Like they’re merely asymptotic, But billing codes for DRGs Are a topic Gordian-knot-ic…I told this patient, let’s call him ‘Joe’, That his particular price I didn’t know, But if I knew, I couldn’t say, If Medicare or insurance was to pay. He could try looking up reimbursement rates On Medicare.dot.gov, And if stymied at their portal gates Joe really ought to love The government rationale for why In Medicare’s case, the Freedom of Information Act Simply does not apply.Now, Patient Joe was frugal, didn’t buy beyond his means, And was dead-set on keeping his own body free of liens. Said Joe: “I can’t sign an informed consent If I’ve not been informed of price!” I sighed, “Then you’ll have to sign this other form, Entitled ‘Against Medical Advice’.”Joe huffs and says:  “…well, ok, but what about my stent? I may just have to sue you for abandonment!” Then he laughs and says “Just kidding doc, this system really sucks. Howzabout just you and me, say, cash, three hundred bucks?”I mustered all my dignity and drew myself erect, And…and…(“meet me in the alley out back at nine. Here’s a razor, and some Betadine.”)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe the Patient</p><p>I went to obtain an informed consent,<br /> And explain to the patient what that meant,<br /> I spent the next several moments explaining<br /> Concepts I’d learned over eight years of training.<br /> The patient said: “Fine,<br /> I am ready to sign,<br /> Just inform me what this procedure will cost”.<br /> And I had to admit I was lost.</p><p>I can lecture on stents<br /> ‘til my face turns cyanotic,<br /> Diagram how we treat flat lines<br /> Like they’re merely asymptotic,<br /> But billing codes for DRGs<br /> Are a topic Gordian-knot-ic…</p><p>I told this patient, let’s call him ‘Joe’,<br /> That his particular price I didn’t know,<br /> But if I knew, I couldn’t say,<br /> If Medicare or insurance was to pay.<br /> He could try looking up reimbursement rates<br /> On Medicare.dot.gov,<br /> And if stymied at their portal gates<br /> Joe really ought to love<br /> The government rationale for why<br /> In Medicare’s case, the Freedom of Information Act<br /> Simply does not apply.</p><p>Now, Patient Joe was frugal, didn’t buy beyond his means,<br /> And was dead-set on keeping his own body free of liens.<br /> Said Joe: “I can’t sign an informed consent<br /> If I’ve not been informed of price!”<br /> I sighed, “Then you’ll have to sign this other form,<br /> Entitled ‘Against Medical Advice’.”</p><p>Joe huffs and says:  “…well, ok, but what about my stent?<br /> I may just have to sue you for abandonment!”<br /> Then he laughs and says “Just kidding doc, this system really sucks.<br /> Howzabout just you and me, say, cash, three hundred bucks?”</p><p>I mustered all my dignity and drew myself erect,<br /> And…and…</p><p>(“meet me in the alley out back at nine. Here’s a razor, and some Betadine.”)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Surgery on wrong knee leads to informed consent questions &#8230; &#171; DocBlawg</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#comment-109868</link> <dc:creator>Surgery on wrong knee leads to informed consent questions &#8230; &#171; DocBlawg</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 04:21:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39581#comment-109868</guid> <description>[...] Surgery on wrong knee leads to informed consent questions&#160;&#8230; August 20, 2009 Posted by docblawg in Legal Issues, Medical Issues.  trackback  This case is intriguing for a couple of reasons.  First, in my many years of representing physicians and hospitals I have never been involved in a case of a misdirected surgery (on the wrong appendage or side).  Second, this case brings up questions of proper informed consent, a question that Dr. Kevin Pho addressed today on his blog.  See:  http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#c... [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Surgery on wrong knee leads to informed consent questions&nbsp;&#8230; August 20, 2009 Posted by docblawg in Legal Issues, Medical Issues.  trackback  This case is intriguing for a couple of reasons.  First, in my many years of representing physicians and hospitals I have never been involved in a case of a misdirected surgery (on the wrong appendage or side).  Second, this case brings up questions of proper informed consent, a question that Dr. Kevin Pho addressed today on his blog.  See:  <a href="http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#c.." rel="nofollow">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#c..</a>. [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: dud</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#comment-109812</link> <dc:creator>dud</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:29:07 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39581#comment-109812</guid> <description>I realize some of informed consent is just CYA.  However, is not the goal also to try to get the patient to understand the proposed procedure and possible alternatives so they are active participants in their health care decsionmaking? I understand this may be difficult with many patients who may range anywhere form frightened to not intellectually capable (I&quot;ll catch hell for that) of understanding the proposed course of treatment. I recently lost my 86 year old grandmother to a cardiac death.  Six weeks prior to her death she was given the recomendation to undrego agressive cardiac surgery.  She refused (she had dementia and I was her POA so it was touchy but her wishes prior to the onset of dementia were well known)  She died at home and peacfulluy.  And cheaply form a beancounter perspective. I would guess informed consent is one of the most important skills a MD (Or DO)can have.  Explaining  something very complex in a way a patient with very little ability to comprehend can get it. I would hope it is more than lawsuit prevention in a six page single spaced binder.  Also, it seems to me a physician who can effectively communicate treatment choices (I know this is easier said than done) would be less likely to end up on the other end of a lawsuit.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize some of informed consent is just CYA.  However, is not the goal also to try to get the patient to understand the proposed procedure and possible alternatives so they are active participants in their health care decsionmaking?<br /> I understand this may be difficult with many patients who may range anywhere form frightened to not intellectually capable (I&#8221;ll catch hell for that) of understanding the proposed course of treatment.<br /> I recently lost my 86 year old grandmother to a cardiac death.  Six weeks prior to her death she was given the recomendation to undrego agressive cardiac surgery.  She refused (she had dementia and I was her POA so it was touchy but her wishes prior to the onset of dementia were well known)  She died at home and peacfulluy.  And cheaply form a beancounter perspective.<br /> I would guess informed consent is one of the most important skills a MD (Or DO)can have.  Explaining  something very complex in a way a patient with very little ability to comprehend can get it.<br /> I would hope it is more than lawsuit prevention in a six page single spaced binder.  Also, it seems to me a physician who can effectively communicate treatment choices (I know this is easier said than done) would be less likely to end up on the other end of a lawsuit.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: HRM</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#comment-109809</link> <dc:creator>HRM</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:14:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39581#comment-109809</guid> <description>As a third year medical student who just completed 2 months of inpatient adult medicine, I was asked several times to go to a patient and get a consent form signed for a procedure. In general, as someone who is very unfamiliar with MOST of these procedures, I felt like it was really inappropriate to ask the naive to explain a procedure to the naive! Thankfully an intern took the time to let me observe him doing a few, and taught me how to explain risks and benefits and especially to talk about the option to do NOTHING! Not saying that I am in any way an expert at this point, but that short educational session made me feel so much better about being able to talk to patients about informed consent. A whole day of class would be ideal, and I think there is definitely time for it during orientation for 3rd year.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a third year medical student who just completed 2 months of inpatient adult medicine, I was asked several times to go to a patient and get a consent form signed for a procedure. In general, as someone who is very unfamiliar with MOST of these procedures, I felt like it was really inappropriate to ask the naive to explain a procedure to the naive!<br /> Thankfully an intern took the time to let me observe him doing a few, and taught me how to explain risks and benefits and especially to talk about the option to do NOTHING! Not saying that I am in any way an expert at this point, but that short educational session made me feel so much better about being able to talk to patients about informed consent. A whole day of class would be ideal, and I think there is definitely time for it during orientation for 3rd year.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: DocbLawg</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#comment-109805</link> <dc:creator>DocbLawg</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:05:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39581#comment-109805</guid> <description>As a medical malpractice lawyer I can tell you first hand that even the witnessed informed consent discussions are never recalled by the Plaintiffs in informed consent cases.  Despite the fact that they sign a document acknowledging informed consent.  It is always a he said/she said and area of contention in litigation.  However, I do believe that spending time while physicians are training to tailor a discussion that is applicable to the physician&#039;s practice is a very good idea because if that discussion is uniform and custom of the physician it becomes admissible evidence even if it was unwitnessed; i.e. the physician always does it that way and never varies.  These discussions are usually backed up with the typical informed consent documents and are documented in the pre-operative History and Physical - all these things, done by virtue of custom and practice by the physician, is much more convincing evidence than a Plaintiff&#039;s memory selective - &quot;he never mentioned that to me&quot;!  So I am a proponent of some formal training covering informed consent.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a medical malpractice lawyer I can tell you first hand that even the witnessed informed consent discussions are never recalled by the Plaintiffs in informed consent cases.  Despite the fact that they sign a document acknowledging informed consent.  It is always a he said/she said and area of contention in litigation.  However, I do believe that spending time while physicians are training to tailor a discussion that is applicable to the physician&#8217;s practice is a very good idea because if that discussion is uniform and custom of the physician it becomes admissible evidence even if it was unwitnessed; i.e. the physician always does it that way and never varies.  These discussions are usually backed up with the typical informed consent documents and are documented in the pre-operative History and Physical &#8211; all these things, done by virtue of custom and practice by the physician, is much more convincing evidence than a Plaintiff&#8217;s memory selective &#8211; &#8220;he never mentioned that to me&#8221;!  So I am a proponent of some formal training covering informed consent.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Michael Kirsch, M.D.</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/08/should-the-informed-consent-discussion-be-formally-taught.html#comment-109797</link> <dc:creator>Michael Kirsch, M.D.</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:42:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/?p=39581#comment-109797</guid> <description>I think that informed consent is often wrongly reduced to patients signing lengthy forms that they have not read or may not understand.  Have these patients participated in an informed consent discussion before signing away their gallbladders?  It would be enlightening if the informed consent process of physicians, including me, were surreptitiously recorded and viewed later.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that informed consent is often wrongly reduced to patients signing lengthy forms that they have not read or may not understand.  Have these patients participated in an informed consent discussion before signing away their gallbladders?  It would be enlightening if the informed consent process of physicians, including me, were surreptitiously recorded and viewed later.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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