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	<title>Comments on: My take: Physician salaries, the Massachusetts trap</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83464</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 04:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m in one of the lowest paying specialties--but I picked it knowing that.  Sure the discrepancy has worsened, and I used to whine about that, but when I realized that I am (barely) still young enough to retrain if I went about it right, and seriously considered doing so for more money, realized that I don&#039;t want to---so I must not think they are so terribly overpaid.   I mean some of those guys doing the same procedure over and over and over again.   If they have a reasonably bright IQ, it must be tortuously boring. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If we all put our troubles out by the street where we could see our own in comparison to our neighbors, most of us would drag our own pile back into the house rather than someone elses.  We picked our own particular poison for a reason, and if we now see the reason to have no basis in our essential character, then we have the freedom to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in one of the lowest paying specialties&#8211;but I picked it knowing that.  Sure the discrepancy has worsened, and I used to whine about that, but when I realized that I am (barely) still young enough to retrain if I went about it right, and seriously considered doing so for more money, realized that I don&#8217;t want to&#8212;so I must not think they are so terribly overpaid.   I mean some of those guys doing the same procedure over and over and over again.   If they have a reasonably bright IQ, it must be tortuously boring. </p>
<p>If we all put our troubles out by the street where we could see our own in comparison to our neighbors, most of us would drag our own pile back into the house rather than someone elses.  We picked our own particular poison for a reason, and if we now see the reason to have no basis in our essential character, then we have the freedom to change.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83447</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ANON 7:04 from 1:03.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I said with exceptions.  Neurosurgeons, among others, deserve their bucks.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In terms of NPs, until there is evidence to say that increasing their prevalence to manage anything beyond basic health care needs, I cannot agree.  Enough data exists to support buttressing primary care in lieu of subspecialists (better outcomes, lower cost).  We need a national workforce policy and more well thought out ratios of physicians.  Continuing down current path will lead, if we are not there already, to collapse of our primary care infrastructre (of which midlevels should be a part by the way).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ANON 7:04 from 1:03.</p>
<p>I said with exceptions.  Neurosurgeons, among others, deserve their bucks.</p>
<p>In terms of NPs, until there is evidence to say that increasing their prevalence to manage anything beyond basic health care needs, I cannot agree.  Enough data exists to support buttressing primary care in lieu of subspecialists (better outcomes, lower cost).  We need a national workforce policy and more well thought out ratios of physicians.  Continuing down current path will lead, if we are not there already, to collapse of our primary care infrastructre (of which midlevels should be a part by the way).</p>
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		<title>By: Supremacy Claus</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83444</link>
		<dc:creator>Supremacy Claus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/02/my-take-physician-salaries-the-massachusetts-trap.html#comment-83444</guid>
		<description>The 2L summer student will get $24,000 for a 10 week summer internship. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The law grad will get $160K out of law school. The med student has been taking care of patients for two years upon graduation, after four years. The law student, has never spoken to a client, nor even written a legal demand letter in anger, after three years of empty verbiage. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The mid-career law partner makes $1.2 mil a year, as an average. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Let&#039;s put things in perspective. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The average lawyer destroys more than $1mil of our economy each year the land pirate lives. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The average doctor restores over $10mil to our economy year after year, by keeping people working, or keeping people from getting worse. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The lawyer makes 99% of the policy decisions of the government. They have been dealing themselves the wealth and power, entirely unopposed by organized medicine. These disloyal clinician traitors have played dead in the face of the onslaught of the lawyer against clinical care from all sides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 2L summer student will get $24,000 for a 10 week summer internship. </p>
<p>The law grad will get $160K out of law school. The med student has been taking care of patients for two years upon graduation, after four years. The law student, has never spoken to a client, nor even written a legal demand letter in anger, after three years of empty verbiage. </p>
<p>The mid-career law partner makes $1.2 mil a year, as an average. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s put things in perspective. </p>
<p>The average lawyer destroys more than $1mil of our economy each year the land pirate lives. </p>
<p>The average doctor restores over $10mil to our economy year after year, by keeping people working, or keeping people from getting worse. </p>
<p>The lawyer makes 99% of the policy decisions of the government. They have been dealing themselves the wealth and power, entirely unopposed by organized medicine. These disloyal clinician traitors have played dead in the face of the onslaught of the lawyer against clinical care from all sides.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83438</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 01:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/02/my-take-physician-salaries-the-massachusetts-trap.html#comment-83438</guid>
		<description>I agree that with present reimbursement rates FPs really have nothing to fear from NPs because the FPs are honestly way better bang for the buck.  But if you add 30 or 40% on to the FP&#039;s income, I think it would change things as far as salaried physicians go (with the employers moving to more NPs) which would have an effect on the whole FP market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that with present reimbursement rates FPs really have nothing to fear from NPs because the FPs are honestly way better bang for the buck.  But if you add 30 or 40% on to the FP&#8217;s income, I think it would change things as far as salaried physicians go (with the employers moving to more NPs) which would have an effect on the whole FP market.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83437</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The more NP you use, the more exposed they will be to malpractice and eventually their rates will go up. At that point they will become more expensive. honestly, the NP that worked with me used to make 60000 for 40 hrs worked and I was making 100000 for 60 hours worked, including calls and hospital rounds which she was not doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more NP you use, the more exposed they will be to malpractice and eventually their rates will go up. At that point they will become more expensive. honestly, the NP that worked with me used to make 60000 for 40 hrs worked and I was making 100000 for 60 hours worked, including calls and hospital rounds which she was not doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83436</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/02/my-take-physician-salaries-the-massachusetts-trap.html#comment-83436</guid>
		<description>Anon 1:03: I don&#039;t agree.  A specialist making 250k more than a FP doc is probably making 400+.  I cannot think of many fields in which physicians make 400k and it isn&#039;t vastly more stressful than family practice.  You are talking about fields where people are constantly on call, have awful family lives and live in the hospital.  Quite frankly, the neurosurgeons around here do deserve to make double what the FPs make, because their lifestyles are sure as hell a lot more than twice as bad and stressful.  And there was that whole working 100 hours a week for 7 years thing in residency.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;From a more practical standpoint, with a trend towards increasing NP independence and use in primary care the idea that FP salaries are going to shoot up is ridiculous unless they go to a NP-management model.  Each increase in FP salary will only make NPs more attractive and the job market worse for FPs.  I think there is some interesting potential in the idea of hybrid practices with NPs handling less complicated/followup type things.  There&#039;s boutique medicine but I don&#039;t think that will ever really grow beyond a small segment.  I&#039;m not saying this is necessarily the ideal state of affairs, but the situation does not seem to be set to improve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon 1:03: I don&#8217;t agree.  A specialist making 250k more than a FP doc is probably making 400+.  I cannot think of many fields in which physicians make 400k and it isn&#8217;t vastly more stressful than family practice.  You are talking about fields where people are constantly on call, have awful family lives and live in the hospital.  Quite frankly, the neurosurgeons around here do deserve to make double what the FPs make, because their lifestyles are sure as hell a lot more than twice as bad and stressful.  And there was that whole working 100 hours a week for 7 years thing in residency.</p>
<p>From a more practical standpoint, with a trend towards increasing NP independence and use in primary care the idea that FP salaries are going to shoot up is ridiculous unless they go to a NP-management model.  Each increase in FP salary will only make NPs more attractive and the job market worse for FPs.  I think there is some interesting potential in the idea of hybrid practices with NPs handling less complicated/followup type things.  There&#8217;s boutique medicine but I don&#8217;t think that will ever really grow beyond a small segment.  I&#8217;m not saying this is necessarily the ideal state of affairs, but the situation does not seem to be set to improve.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83433</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t think much at all of forcing people to buy health insurance--it has no comparison to car insurance:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;   1.  We only require people to buy automotive liability--not collision.  We are requiring them to cover the risk to which they put others by operating a car, not their own risk. They are perfectly free to self-insure for their own risk.  They should be for health insurance also.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;   2.  People have the option of not owning a car. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;    3.  Automotive liability is not nearly as expensive.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The only moral case that can be made for mandatory health coverage is for emergency care only.  By existing, you are putting the nearest ER at risk, but for non-emergency care providers are free to deny you care and so it just can&#039;t be morally justified.  It probably makes more sense to collective that limited risk through the tax system.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;People have the right to not buy health insurance just as surely as they have the right to live and die without health care if that is what they want.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;People should have to freedom to choose how they want to pay for their health care--prepayment via a  plan or pay as expenses arise.  All the political debate notwithstanding, this is a private choice and not the public&#039;s business.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Much of the push to complete the partial collectivization is predicated on the oft proclaimed belief that the uninsured are the source of the cost problem. The data says otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think much at all of forcing people to buy health insurance&#8211;it has no comparison to car insurance:</p>
<p>   1.  We only require people to buy automotive liability&#8211;not collision.  We are requiring them to cover the risk to which they put others by operating a car, not their own risk. They are perfectly free to self-insure for their own risk.  They should be for health insurance also.</p>
<p>   2.  People have the option of not owning a car. </p>
<p>    3.  Automotive liability is not nearly as expensive.</p>
<p>The only moral case that can be made for mandatory health coverage is for emergency care only.  By existing, you are putting the nearest ER at risk, but for non-emergency care providers are free to deny you care and so it just can&#8217;t be morally justified.  It probably makes more sense to collective that limited risk through the tax system.</p>
<p>People have the right to not buy health insurance just as surely as they have the right to live and die without health care if that is what they want.</p>
<p>People should have to freedom to choose how they want to pay for their health care&#8211;prepayment via a  plan or pay as expenses arise.  All the political debate notwithstanding, this is a private choice and not the public&#8217;s business.</p>
<p>Much of the push to complete the partial collectivization is predicated on the oft proclaimed belief that the uninsured are the source of the cost problem. The data says otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Brayer MD</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83431</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Brayer MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kevinmd, agree with you completely on both points.  To ERP: Forcing insurance or universal coverage is flawed unless you tackle the other issues.  More covered people just means more healthcare costs and with primary care crashing in the U.S. it means BIG increased specialty costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevinmd, agree with you completely on both points.  To ERP: Forcing insurance or universal coverage is flawed unless you tackle the other issues.  More covered people just means more healthcare costs and with primary care crashing in the U.S. it means BIG increased specialty costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83430</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree income for docs in US is generally higher but recently GPs in England seem to have seen a impressive surge in compensation according to this article&lt;br/&gt;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6157219.stm&lt;br/&gt;GPs getting $200,000&lt;br/&gt;If so will the brain drain of the 60&#039;s(or whenever it was that the newly born NHS lead to a exodus of docs to the west) be reversed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree income for docs in US is generally higher but recently GPs in England seem to have seen a impressive surge in compensation according to this article<br /><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6157219.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6157219.stm</a><br />GPs getting $200,000<br />If so will the brain drain of the 60&#8217;s(or whenever it was that the newly born NHS lead to a exodus of docs to the west) be reversed?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/02/my-take_07.html/comment-page-1#comment-83425</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/02/my-take-physician-salaries-the-massachusetts-trap.html#comment-83425</guid>
		<description>Agreed.  However, many would take greater exception to the primary care/subspecalist pay disparity.  If no changes would/could be made, resdistribution is not only right, but necessary.  With exceptions, and I wont name specialities to avoid battles, some groups of docs could use a 10% slice for transference to the FPs, Peds, etc, of the world.  It is obscene to think that there is a differential of 200-300K between these groups.  Not right.  Period.  I am not a primary care doc btw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  However, many would take greater exception to the primary care/subspecalist pay disparity.  If no changes would/could be made, resdistribution is not only right, but necessary.  With exceptions, and I wont name specialities to avoid battles, some groups of docs could use a 10% slice for transference to the FPs, Peds, etc, of the world.  It is obscene to think that there is a differential of 200-300K between these groups.  Not right.  Period.  I am not a primary care doc btw.</p>
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