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	<title>Comments on: Man sues hospital for a &quot;forced&quot; rectal exam</title>
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		<title>By: GG Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-91133</link>
		<dc:creator>GG Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 13:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anonymous 8:35 - I hope you&#039;re never in a serious trauma situation.  The cops and medics who will risk their lives standing in traffic to scrape you off the road and bring you to the ER where the doctors and nurses just had a gun pulled on them for not seeing somebody&#039;s dad fast enough for non-cardiac chest pain will still do their best to make sure you get the best care available. Heck, they will even save your life without so much as a please or thank you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I was an MS3, my VA attending had a rule: A rectal on every admission.  Why? He had once missed a neurological injury that could have been caught with one. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, patients have the right to refuse... and sure, if the plaintiff was competent at the time he can leave AMA.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;BUT...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyone who will swing at you in the ER is baseline unstable. Period. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know too many ER doctors, nurses and techs and clerks who have been assaulted because, &quot;Mister Jones was angry and upset.&quot; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Truly defensive medicine is when somebody has your 5&#039;2&quot; nurse by the throat against the wall...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyone who thinks this guy should win his case... should be ashamed. You just said it&#039;s ok to assault the very people (from the cop and medic to the nurse and doc) who put their lives on the line for you every day they walk into work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous 8:35 &#8211; I hope you&#8217;re never in a serious trauma situation.  The cops and medics who will risk their lives standing in traffic to scrape you off the road and bring you to the ER where the doctors and nurses just had a gun pulled on them for not seeing somebody&#8217;s dad fast enough for non-cardiac chest pain will still do their best to make sure you get the best care available. Heck, they will even save your life without so much as a please or thank you.</p>
<p>When I was an MS3, my VA attending had a rule: A rectal on every admission.  Why? He had once missed a neurological injury that could have been caught with one. </p>
<p>Yes, patients have the right to refuse&#8230; and sure, if the plaintiff was competent at the time he can leave AMA.</p>
<p>BUT&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyone who will swing at you in the ER is baseline unstable. Period. </p>
<p>I know too many ER doctors, nurses and techs and clerks who have been assaulted because, &#8220;Mister Jones was angry and upset.&#8221; </p>
<p>Truly defensive medicine is when somebody has your 5&#8242;2&#8243; nurse by the throat against the wall&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyone who thinks this guy should win his case&#8230; should be ashamed. You just said it&#8217;s ok to assault the very people (from the cop and medic to the nurse and doc) who put their lives on the line for you every day they walk into work.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-85348</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 01:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This story is yet another reason why I hate hospitals, distrust doctors and nurses. If a patient says NO to anything (such as rectal exams, catheters etc.) then have him or her sign a release and or waiver of responsibility and let him go. I so loathe the &quot;Medical Profession&quot;. What a dispicable thing to force on anyone capable of deciding no. Whatever happened to patient rights? Doctors humph, God I hate &#039;em all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This story is yet another reason why I hate hospitals, distrust doctors and nurses. If a patient says NO to anything (such as rectal exams, catheters etc.) then have him or her sign a release and or waiver of responsibility and let him go. I so loathe the &#8220;Medical Profession&#8221;. What a dispicable thing to force on anyone capable of deciding no. Whatever happened to patient rights? Doctors humph, God I hate &#8216;em all!</p>
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		<title>By: Rusty</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-85193</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Some pretty disturbing responses, seemingly down the medical line. Meds on the &quot;Do it&quot; and civilians on the &quot;We have rights&quot;. As a person with specific religious beliefs I can ssure you that many people have many reasons for denying consent to certain procedures. The guy was not in a coma and the fact he refused consent after being told what they wanted to do shows me he was not in a position to be deemed &quot;incapable of making decsions about his person&quot;. I as a concious and lucid person have the right to refuse any tests I so choose, that is MY right and medical &quot;professionsals&quot; have a concrete &quot;Butt cover&quot; in that cute little AMA form they have a patient sign when they refuse any part of, or request, by the medical staff. He wasn&#039;t offered that option. He was assaulted and I would be enraged. The only persons creating this &quot;us verses them&quot; mentality are the medical professionals themselves who refuse to stop treating patients like animals who are visiting a vet. Just because you are a Medical Heath Care worker does not mean you can view people who come to you for help to be but dumb animals with no right to control their own person. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I as a patient have the responsibility to listen to your &quot;Suggested courses of action&quot; and any tests you would &quot;like&quot; done or think would help. It is then totally 100% up to me which tests I consent to and it is my responsibility to deal with the reprocussions. I sign your form, do the tests I will consent to, and take the help you offer. You give said help and do your best. That is the way it is suppose to be...equal respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some pretty disturbing responses, seemingly down the medical line. Meds on the &#8220;Do it&#8221; and civilians on the &#8220;We have rights&#8221;. As a person with specific religious beliefs I can ssure you that many people have many reasons for denying consent to certain procedures. The guy was not in a coma and the fact he refused consent after being told what they wanted to do shows me he was not in a position to be deemed &#8220;incapable of making decsions about his person&#8221;. I as a concious and lucid person have the right to refuse any tests I so choose, that is MY right and medical &#8220;professionsals&#8221; have a concrete &#8220;Butt cover&#8221; in that cute little AMA form they have a patient sign when they refuse any part of, or request, by the medical staff. He wasn&#8217;t offered that option. He was assaulted and I would be enraged. The only persons creating this &#8220;us verses them&#8221; mentality are the medical professionals themselves who refuse to stop treating patients like animals who are visiting a vet. Just because you are a Medical Heath Care worker does not mean you can view people who come to you for help to be but dumb animals with no right to control their own person. </p>
<p>I as a patient have the responsibility to listen to your &#8220;Suggested courses of action&#8221; and any tests you would &#8220;like&#8221; done or think would help. It is then totally 100% up to me which tests I consent to and it is my responsibility to deal with the reprocussions. I sign your form, do the tests I will consent to, and take the help you offer. You give said help and do your best. That is the way it is suppose to be&#8230;equal respect.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-85162</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-a-forced-rectal-exam.html#comment-85162</guid>
		<description>Regarding the study showing the rectal exam is not useful...just because someone can pop onto google and find a result (and I doubt anyone read more than the title or a few lines in the abstract), doesn&#039;t mean the study is significant.  As a researcher, I don&#039;t rely on a single result, but rather a collection of results, each of which I critically assess, to come up with a conclusion.  I doubt most people commenting on the &quot;effectiveness&quot; have read the quoted article itself, or any of the cited articles (which argue both for and against the use of the exam).  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Basically, the doctors were trying to perform a reasonable test that might indicate a larger, more life threatening problem.  I&#039;m happy the courts saw that the doctors were trying to perform a thorough diagnosis/treatment on their patient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the study showing the rectal exam is not useful&#8230;just because someone can pop onto google and find a result (and I doubt anyone read more than the title or a few lines in the abstract), doesn&#8217;t mean the study is significant.  As a researcher, I don&#8217;t rely on a single result, but rather a collection of results, each of which I critically assess, to come up with a conclusion.  I doubt most people commenting on the &#8220;effectiveness&#8221; have read the quoted article itself, or any of the cited articles (which argue both for and against the use of the exam).  </p>
<p>Basically, the doctors were trying to perform a reasonable test that might indicate a larger, more life threatening problem.  I&#8217;m happy the courts saw that the doctors were trying to perform a thorough diagnosis/treatment on their patient.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-84423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>According to Brian Persaud himself, he was driven to the emergency room,simply to get stitches. Brian Persaud is a credible man. I Have seen and heard him in interviews, and I believe him. Patient advocate, Art Levin, believes him too.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A competent person can refuse treatment, even in an emergency setting. Hospital records describe Persaud as &#039;alert and oriented&#039;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Don&#039;t dismiss this case. It won&#039;t be decided by doctors. I once sat on a jury in a malpractice suit. There was zero sympathy for the doctor, and the hospital involved.&lt;br/&gt;It wouldn&#039;t surprize me to see a settlement, before trial. that is Less risky for Cornell. You cannot second guess what a jury will do.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Persaud&#039;s lawyer is hardly an ambulance chaser. He has represented Mafia figures, and got them acquitted. Beating the feds isn&#039;t that easy.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Since my dad is a personal injury attorney, who has won many malpractice suits, I can say this.&lt;br/&gt;High dollar attorneys do not pursue this kind of case, for five years, unless they have a great deal of confidence in winning. The hospital was hoping it would be dismissed. It wasn&#039;t.  We shall see. Never bet against a really smart lawyer. Remember Johnny Cochran.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Brian Persaud himself, he was driven to the emergency room,simply to get stitches. Brian Persaud is a credible man. I Have seen and heard him in interviews, and I believe him. Patient advocate, Art Levin, believes him too.</p>
<p>A competent person can refuse treatment, even in an emergency setting. Hospital records describe Persaud as &#8216;alert and oriented&#8217;.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t dismiss this case. It won&#8217;t be decided by doctors. I once sat on a jury in a malpractice suit. There was zero sympathy for the doctor, and the hospital involved.<br />It wouldn&#8217;t surprize me to see a settlement, before trial. that is Less risky for Cornell. You cannot second guess what a jury will do.</p>
<p>Persaud&#8217;s lawyer is hardly an ambulance chaser. He has represented Mafia figures, and got them acquitted. Beating the feds isn&#8217;t that easy.</p>
<p>Since my dad is a personal injury attorney, who has won many malpractice suits, I can say this.<br />High dollar attorneys do not pursue this kind of case, for five years, unless they have a great deal of confidence in winning. The hospital was hoping it would be dismissed. It wasn&#8217;t.  We shall see. Never bet against a really smart lawyer. Remember Johnny Cochran.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-82933</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-a-forced-rectal-exam.html#comment-82933</guid>
		<description>&quot;The emergency room staff performing the medical evaluation didn&#039;t arrest and jail the plaintiff, and the police, who presumably arrested the patient did not perform the exam the patient objected to. &quot;&lt;br/&gt;Is police generally present in examinations rooms in the ED and watches examinations? Or was it someone from the stuff who actually did the examination who called the police and pressed charges? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There is no inconsistency. Unless policeman was there in the emergency room and reacted on his own accord, it was someone who did the examination who choose to call the police and press charges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The emergency room staff performing the medical evaluation didn&#8217;t arrest and jail the plaintiff, and the police, who presumably arrested the patient did not perform the exam the patient objected to. &#8220;<br />Is police generally present in examinations rooms in the ED and watches examinations? Or was it someone from the stuff who actually did the examination who called the police and pressed charges? </p>
<p>There is no inconsistency. Unless policeman was there in the emergency room and reacted on his own accord, it was someone who did the examination who choose to call the police and press charges.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-82889</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-a-forced-rectal-exam.html#comment-82889</guid>
		<description>The emergency room staff performing the medical evaluation didn&#039;t arrest and jail the plaintiff, and the police, who presumably arrested the patient did not perform the exam the patient objected to. There is no inherent inconsistency here. The police apparently were not deferring to the ED doctor&#039;s judgment about whether the patient should be arrested, and there is no reason to suppose they should have.&lt;br/&gt;The doctor believing the patient is  not rational to make consent decisions has nothing to do with the policeman trying to decide whether the assaultive patient is dangerous. Two different people looking at the same person for two different reasons, so your question is pointless.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The story does not say what sort of devices were brought with this patient; but paramedics usually bring trauma victims in in immobilizing devices, and those devices are usually not removed until after a physical examination of the patient is done and sometimes not until after a CT is done as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The emergency room staff performing the medical evaluation didn&#8217;t arrest and jail the plaintiff, and the police, who presumably arrested the patient did not perform the exam the patient objected to. There is no inherent inconsistency here. The police apparently were not deferring to the ED doctor&#8217;s judgment about whether the patient should be arrested, and there is no reason to suppose they should have.<br />The doctor believing the patient is  not rational to make consent decisions has nothing to do with the policeman trying to decide whether the assaultive patient is dangerous. Two different people looking at the same person for two different reasons, so your question is pointless.</p>
<p>The story does not say what sort of devices were brought with this patient; but paramedics usually bring trauma victims in in immobilizing devices, and those devices are usually not removed until after a physical examination of the patient is done and sometimes not until after a CT is done as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-82888</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-a-forced-rectal-exam.html#comment-82888</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If this court is finding reasonably, then they will likely find that if you come to the hospital in a c-collar and on a backboard, then you have de-facto consented to whatever assessment is necessary to get you safely out of those devices.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Did he come on a board and in a c-collar? The article didn&#039;t say he did.  Again, if he was incompetent, why did they jail him for resisting the test? Either he is competent or not, you cannot have it both ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If this court is finding reasonably, then they will likely find that if you come to the hospital in a c-collar and on a backboard, then you have de-facto consented to whatever assessment is necessary to get you safely out of those devices.</i><br />Did he come on a board and in a c-collar? The article didn&#8217;t say he did.  Again, if he was incompetent, why did they jail him for resisting the test? Either he is competent or not, you cannot have it both ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-82858</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-a-forced-rectal-exam.html#comment-82858</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;&quot;Forcing a rectal exam on an oriented person is illegal.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That might be your personal opinion, but I very much doubt a court will find that anything illegal occurred or that the patient suffered compensable harm.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If for no other reason the argument of the greater public good can be made that emergency medical personnel should not be required to parse the elements of a comprehensive neurological examination done in a trauma care setting vis-a-vis consent and to have to decide whether each patient is competent to decide--rationally or not--whether particular steps in an examination can be done. Needing to clear a patient&#039;s spine of injury in an acute setting requires respecting the timeliness with which that assessment must be done.  It just isn&#039;t practical to stop everything in a trauma code to go fetch release AMA forms so a patient can opt out of the rectal. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If this court is finding reasonably, then they will likely find that if you come to the hospital in a c-collar and on a backboard, then you have de-facto consented to whatever assessment is necessary to get you safely out of those devices. That goes for rectal exams, CT scans and any other reasonable examination techniques.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If our society wants an effective medical response to trauma, a balance of interests will have to curtail the notion of unlimited right to refuse evaluation so that first responders and ED responders can do their jobs without fear of unreasonable litigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>>&#8221;Forcing a rectal exam on an oriented person is illegal.&#8221;</p>
<p>That might be your personal opinion, but I very much doubt a court will find that anything illegal occurred or that the patient suffered compensable harm.</p>
<p>If for no other reason the argument of the greater public good can be made that emergency medical personnel should not be required to parse the elements of a comprehensive neurological examination done in a trauma care setting vis-a-vis consent and to have to decide whether each patient is competent to decide&#8211;rationally or not&#8211;whether particular steps in an examination can be done. Needing to clear a patient&#8217;s spine of injury in an acute setting requires respecting the timeliness with which that assessment must be done.  It just isn&#8217;t practical to stop everything in a trauma code to go fetch release AMA forms so a patient can opt out of the rectal. </p>
<p>If this court is finding reasonably, then they will likely find that if you come to the hospital in a c-collar and on a backboard, then you have de-facto consented to whatever assessment is necessary to get you safely out of those devices. That goes for rectal exams, CT scans and any other reasonable examination techniques.</p>
<p>If our society wants an effective medical response to trauma, a balance of interests will have to curtail the notion of unlimited right to refuse evaluation so that first responders and ED responders can do their jobs without fear of unreasonable litigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-forced-rectal.html/comment-page-1#comment-82847</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2008/01/man-sues-hospital-for-a-forced-rectal-exam.html#comment-82847</guid>
		<description>All patients in head trauma situations are evaluated for alertness and orientation--competency.  If he was competent and had refused the rectal examination--all the hospital had to do was present him with a form to opt out and the hospital would not be held liable.  Forcing a rectal exam on an oriented person is illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All patients in head trauma situations are evaluated for alertness and orientation&#8211;competency.  If he was competent and had refused the rectal examination&#8211;all the hospital had to do was present him with a form to opt out and the hospital would not be held liable.  Forcing a rectal exam on an oriented person is illegal.</p>
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