I don’t know any PhDs earning less than $200,000/year but then they all have their own labs and are full professors.

Arguing that M.D.s should accept substandard wages just because Ph.D.s do so is patently absurd. Neither field is worth the efforts if that is all their markets will offer, not enough to qualify to buy a home in most major cities.

Speaking from a position of knowing, I can tell you that a PA and an NP could care for a cold, or a techinical skill trained by a specialist, like post op wound checks.

I would never trust a PA/NP to be able to practice medicine. They simply lack the training, knowledge, and capability. W’ere talking about 2 years of training compared to 7 years for an MD. I know because I have them come through in their clinicals, in their last months of schooling, and they are incapable of diagnosing complex medical conditions, and interplaying medical conditions, medications. They are great data gatherers, but they do not have the ability to connect the dots. That’s what MD’s do. You try an pretend that primary care docs can be replaced with “providers” Like I said. You get what you pay for. I would never send myself or family to a PA or NP for diagnostic and management of any condition.

Can they diagnose a cold? Sure, so can my wifes med aid sister. I’m sure the public could as well. Can they care for multiple medical conditions that require extensive training to understand how they interplay with each other. Absoluetly not. They don’t have the type of training to do so. You are willing to sacrifice a “few percentage” of people. Interesting. You are willing to accept less. Even more interesting. You would rather pay a PA/NP’s to give care you would consider substandard, than pay a primary care doc a wage which gives access to standardized care.

You bring up an interesting argument. PhD’s practicing for $30,000 a year. That equates to $15/hour. Good luck filing that postition for very long. It won’t occur in medicine, which apparently you are willing to dumb down.

Primary care is more than Google, as much as you’d like to think otherwise. You can’t google your way to adequate healthcare

Accepting failure is the first step towards defeat. I won’t go down that road.

Would you accept a PA to do heart bypass surgery?, How about your heart cath? You colonoscopy? Would you see a NP to manage your chronic lung disease?

If the answer is no, which for me it would be a resounding no, why would you accept less for your basic health care, the type that would prevent you from ever going to a specialist because a PA “missed” the diagnosis.

It makes little sense that you have been brainwashed to accept less for your basic health care needs. It is quite sad.

The system will suffer in your accepting defeat.

My point is that the length of one’s education really has nothing to do with pay…it has to do with one’s perceived value.

Women who balk at buying health insurance for a couple hundred a month, walk in and drop 10k on a breast augmentation, lipo and tuck (CASH!) without batting an eye.

But I’m not saying anything you or anybody else on this forum don’t already know. I’m honestly kinda defeatist about this issue at this point…I say heck bring in the NP’s or PA’s and have them be our primary care providers. I’m sure some things will be missed that will end up hurting a small percentage of people….that otherwise would have been caught by an alert doc…but if that’s where society is pushing this then so be it.

I’m pretty sure they don’t require any college degree.

The average dentist makes $180,000, with 3 years less training than primary care.

IT jobs coming are coming out at $100,000 staring salaries because that is what the market will pay.

The reimbursment market for medicine is fixed. It is killing your best and brightest from saving lives.

Do I need to keep going?

Your stance is without merit.

that’s $150,000.

I am not aware of any mechanic that requires 12 years of post highschool training.

My lawyer in my same highschool class billed me $200 an hour to set up my estate planing, We are the same age. He jump started me by 4 years into the professional world.

My accountant charged me almost $600 to do my taxes, which I guarantee took less than 3 hours to complete.

In the medical clinical world, there is no ladder to climb, there is no expectation of increasing financial status. What you see is what you get. So starting at $200,000 means that is likely your ceiling, forever.

There is no becoming a Director, Vice President, CEO. There is no future income rise. The payment structure of medicine does not work like that.

You are arguing that physicians are paid to much. You are seeing the effects of your argument, with primary care leaving in droves.

It’s a completely silly and unfounded stance. IF you want the best and brightest taking care of you, you have to pay for it. That means valuing physician pay above almost all other professional fields, including unionized auto workers. Otherwise you get what you pay for, mediocracy

Beyond professional sports, what other fields have those AVERAGES? Not a few people who start there, but averages?

The reimbursment model in the last 10 years has decimated primary care. It was not like this years ago. That’s why primary care thrived. So not, the older docs did not enter the field knowing this would happen.

It’s like you taking a job knowing very well that you would receive no raise for 10 years and would be told ahead of time you would receive a paycut every year for the next 10 years. The reason you don’t have medical students entering primary care is because they won’t sign up for such a system, just like you wouldn’t. The reason already established primary care docs are leaving is because the supressed reimbursment system that was forced upon them without control has created a disincentive to practice.

Your end result is a massive shortage coming to a neighborhood near you.

You bring up agreat point about being promised 200K right out of school. I can assure you just about every specialty out there pays well north of 200K a year, so the answer is yes, as a newly graduated physician, they could expect to be paid north of 200k.

Primary care does not lend that promise, anymore. That is why only 20% of medical students are entering the field. In case you didn’t know, 10 years ago, that number was 50%.

And it is not greed, it is a matter of opportunity cost. Other fields with far less education and training and less risk and cost structures to run a business have similar compensation packages. If you want the smartest people taking care of you, you better pay well enough to entice them to enter that field. Otherwise you have average intelligence docs, the 2.5 GPA’s, the “Oh, I’ll take a C because it’s passing” mentallity that doesn’t cut it in the physician educational world. You must pay the best, the best, or they will never become your doctor. You will settle for substandard care.

You knew the score from the beginning and that 78 year old man, I bet has paid far more for medical care in his life, than what you would ever imagine.