Newsflash: The majority believe health care is a right, and that someone else should pay for it.
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Allow balance billing without limits. Tell Medicare beneficiaries that they get a fixed amount for a service and let them decide who, if anyone, is worth paying more that that amount. The information about who is worth extra for the knee replacement or cataract surgery will get out.
Same goes for private plans.
E.R. care claims should be covered at the highest amount reasonable and could be subject to an independent panel review (i.e., neither the payee nor the government agency fond of “sustainable growth increases.”) Patients who are abusers of emergency care can be subject to powerful sanctions, including civil penalties.
The next time your office gets broken into and your files are stolen, I imagine you will call the police. When you do that, consider what the job they do, may be worth to you. Yet, you will not be writing them a check because you (and everyone else) knows it is your right to have law enforcement protection. It is probably one of the most important rights we have, and, they are paid by single payors..either by state, county, city or Govt taxes. And that system works. It is our right, and healthcare should also be a right.
Anon 3:39:
“…it is your right to have law enforcement protection”
I haven’t laughed this hard in some time! Thanks!
Now, in all seriousness, rights don’t cost money and never will. If one changes one’s thought based on this truth, then the above would be true as follows -
“…it is your right to protect yourself and your property”.
I think the differences between what people say -everyone should have coverage- and what they will sign up for tells the story.
Perhaps health care is not as hot a political issue as the press would lead us to believe.
If nothing much changes once we get a new administration then we’ll know that it’s not what people say, it’s what they do that counts.
re: “The next time your office gets broken into and your files are stolen, I imagine you will call the police.”
lol lol
The last time I called the police (for a break-in) they mailed me a report to fill out. Nobody showed up. Unless life and limb is involved that is now the status quo.
re: “It is our right, and healthcare should also be a right.”
Ok then how does it paid for? Who makes the decisions to stop expensive and largely futile care that US families’ insist on? How is a system adopted where it doesn’t turn into a giant VA equivalent (ie the majority of employees are largely worthless and know there will be no action against there lack of work ethic. The system would fall apart without resident’s and dedicated RN’s)? Let us here specifics. I am not against single payer in principle.
The problem is that most single payer proponents is they haven’t really thought things out, certainly not enought to answer the questions just asked. So anon 3:08, knock yourself out. Let’s here your ideas of how to set up a single payer system in this country.
You need another election to teach you that? How old are you?
Regarding law enforcement protection. It is not a right. The US Supreme Court has ruled acordingly. The police have no obligation to you to take any action whatsoever in response to your calls. They can, and sometimes do, ignore your calls for help or for their investigation after a crime. If you want to be sure someone is going to come running when your alarm goes off, you contract with a private security company that then has a contractual obligation to do so. The police might, or might not, depending on current funding, demand, political priorities, and whether they like you.
The parallels to healthcare are striking. Single payor systems are very uneven in their responsivity to need–even when they do declare it a “right”.
Anon 3:39, that is a completely nonsensical argument.
Law enforcement has been traditionally the domain of government since governments are the organ of legislation, and the executive responsibility of policing has usually been one of government. It does not follow that medical care should also be the responsibility of government.
Hospitals in the USA have been traditionally privately funded as charity institutions, and the work of doctors was always traditionally paid privately except in the military. Your analogy is a non sequitur.
Using the police as an example of an effective public service invites scruitiny all by itself. To examine your example further, calling the police rarely replaces anything that is stolen, sorry to disappoint you. The rate of closed cases with recovery of stolen property is low enough just about everywhere that police are reluctant to even discuss recovery. Worse, police spend time on things that are politically important and/or financially important to the communituies they serve, which usually means investigation of crimes against persons, major felonies and traffic enforcement. Recovering stolen goods is a low priority.
If you want to protect your property, build well, buy strong locks and buy good insurance. And pick your neighborhood well. The government won’t be helping you with any of that.
Fine, then dont ever call the police for any reason whatsoever. oh and when your home is buring down, dont call the fire dept. either. Call the guys who you have privately hired to put our your fires. Dont put someone else’s life in danger who you are not personally writing a check to. You keep knocking all these systems that we all depend on sooner or later, and you totally neglect that these systems work. The exact same as a NHS will also work.
As for funding it. I dont know maybe if we stop fighting useless wars, we can use some of those billions of dollars for our own healthcare.
Comparing healthcare to police and fire protection makes a hell of a lot more sense then when most of you compare it to getting your car fixed, or drinking water. I mean geez, how retarded is that?
The small town where I lived did NOT have a police department. Police coverage was the county sheriff and the state police. Response time is what you would expect when they have so big an area to cover and may be physically very far away. Locals organized a neighborhood watch because of a number of break-ins. They made up caps and T-shirts, walked around and communicated if anything was suspicious.
The University where I used to teach, on the other hand, was inner city. The large metropolitan city police was inadequate to control crime on campus. As a result, the University pressured the city and the state to allow them to get their own police force. They are fully trained and fully State-Certified. Armed, with arrest powers, and all that, like the city police force.
So this “right” comes in several tiers. Less for the rural area, because the locals choose not to fund their own police force, and a University campus that chose to fund more police service for themselves.
The fire department in my area is volunteer. If they chose not to volunteer, our “right” to fire protection would vanish fast.
Fine.
The state can pay my salary, provide an office, a vehicle for transporatation, gasoline (I do have to travel to hospitals), pay for my nurses and office staff, provide supplies, and oh yeah, pay for my insurance. When I am lacking supplies that you may need for treatment, complain to your local representative. Also, since police and firefighters have their training paid for, I’d like that, too.
And when the legislators cannot balance the budget, they will decide to close a certain number of “medical homes” to make ends meet, just like they have done with firehouses!
I can’t wait to have all of those official government holidays off! I imaging they will have to pay time-and-a-half for work on holidays, weekends, and overtime too!
Firefighters may be able to put out the fire in your home, and they may even get there before it is completely destroyed.
But unless you have paid for your own insurance, who do you think is going to finance the repair or replacement of your home? “The government?”
Good luck with that. The concept of personal responsibility is too difficult for some to grasp.
I’d also love for “them” (taxpayers) to pay for extensive benefits for me, my family, & my office staff, on par with what local cops get – FULL dental & vision coverage, health insurance without copays or deductibles that is flush, and negotiated by a bigass corrupt union on my side-
I certainly can’t afford all that myself, as a doctor & small business person.
On the other hand, my secretary is married to a cop & gets a beautiful expensive new pair of eyeglasses every year (mine costs over $300 out-of-pocket, so i wait until they’re broken).
Many cops in long island are making over $100k/yr (some over $150k w/overtime), and can retire with half-salary and start a second career before they’re 40 years old. In fact, there was one in my med school class, who was a “retired” detective.
“Good luck with that. The concept of personal responsibility is too difficult for some to grasp.”
Anyone who has ever asked a physician if they made a mistake knows that.
Happyman, you are certainly a funny man. Cops making over 100K or 150K per year is about the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.
My husband is a retired detective and he retired at age 48 with 25 years of service. He also bought and added his 3 years of military time to his retirement. NEVER and I repeat NEVER did he make anything even close to 100K per year. You are dreaming!In fact not only did he work full time, he also worked moonlight jobs 5 nights every week, I also worked full time and part time and that is what it took to raise a couple kids and live a half way normal life. Our benefits were not even close to what you describe here. It was actually an 80/20 plan. Well 20% of hospital bills come to alot of money. now when my husband was shot (back in the late 60s during the racial riots) while protecting your ass and everyone else’s, of course we didn’t have to pay the 20% for that hospitilization.
Anon 5:51…You cannot be so far out of touch that you think cops and firemen get all those govt holidays off. Please say you know better than this? I thought everyone in the entire world knew that cops and firemen worked nights, holidays and weekends. My husband was a cop for 11 years before he had his first christmas eve off.
Make NO mistake about it. Cops are some of the most underpaid people in this world. Please do not believe the trash happyman is trying to tell you about cops salary, that is hilarious.
From the NYPD website:
1 in 6 uniformed members of the NYPD are Detectives. A Detective’s (3rd Grade) average earning is
$100,000* (Promotion to Detective is not based on a promotional exam, it’s based on merit)
1 in 7 uniformed members of the NYPD are Sergeants. A Sergeant’s average earning is $100,000*
1 in 20 uniformed members of the NYPD are Lieutenants. A Lieutenant’s average earning is $122,000*
I don’t have any problems with cops making those salaries, but a little honesty is needed.
Anon 3:39/8:24
re: “As for funding it. I dont know maybe if we stop fighting useless wars, we can use some of those billions of dollars for our own healthcare.”
ONce again the “health care is a right” crowd makes blanket statments without any clue how to answer REAL QUESTIONS on how to institute single payer. Why don’t you review my statement (I am anon 6:03) and try again with some REAL IDEAS and not some stupid sophmoric soundbite.
“My husband is a retired detective and he retired at age 48 with 25 years of service.”
Retired at 48? sounds nice to me… And with a pension too. Sounds like he could start another career and draw a salary and pension if he wanted to. Moonlighting, yep, do that too, a half-way normal life, um, no. A wife, um, no. Overtime pay, um, no. Sounds like your husband has it better than me.
Not down on the police, but it’s not always a good life on this end either. We’re people who face the same issues you do, but usually with more stress and less time. Sometimes there’s nothing to be jealous of.
from the New York Times 9/19/97(more than TEN YEARS AGO): “On Long Island, Critics Upset About the High Cost of Police …Officers are entitled to retire at half pay after 20 years on the job…Those with disabilities like a heart condition get three-fourths pay, tax free…receive termination checks for unused sick leave and other credits that now top $100,000 and … hit $200,000… Those golden parachutes are real budget time bombs…”
another quote from the ny times is linked below, but abridged “With overtime, many members of the Suffolk department routinely make more than $100,000″
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/nyregion/22cops.html?fta=y
are you able to quote anything or just anecdotes?
my only experiences with cops have been either a) traffic tickets (they HATE doctors); b) when they solicit donations for the PBA in exchange for those worthless stickers for the windshield; or c) when they avoided coming to my office to take seriously a break-in & computer theft.
anon 5:00 – it sounds like you had it real tough, retiring at 48 (??? who the hell else can retire that early???)
glad you think i’m funny.
I am an ER doc. My brother is a cop. My other brother is a financial planner/stock broker.
I make 200K with zero paid benefits. The cop makes 110K with full benefits working the same amount of hours. He can retire in 5 years with a pension. My financial guru brother has run the calculations considering opportunity costs of school and I will have to work for 5-8 years after cop has retired to be on the same financal plain. Of course financial brother is smoking us both.
You police families need to move to New Jersey:
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=4&id=28210
In Fort Lee:
“Among the highest-paid last year were the borough attorney, who also acts as the labor attorney, receiving $219,673; the public safety director and the police chief, who each made between $155,000 and $160,000; and the borough administrator, who was paid $145,145. Thirteen other members of the Police Department received at least $125,000, including overtime.”
“Of the 60 Fort Lee employees who received $100,000 or more last year, 54 came from the ranks of the Police Department, where the median base pay and overtime for full-timers was about $98,000. “
“Collective bargaining agreements are at the heart of the ballooning payroll, officials said.”
In Ridgewood:
“Ten Ridgewood firefighters were paid $100,000 or more in base pay, along with 17 police officers.”
This, fromt he new Jersey State Police Website:
http://www.njsp.org/recruit/salary.html
“The current starting salary for a trooper is $58,748.29 (including uniform allowance). The second-year total compensation jumps to $65,662.39. Top pay for a Trooper I is $97,188.48. Troopers receive yearly increments. All recruits receive $777.78 every two weeks, plus overtime pay. Room and board are also provided while training.”
and
“Service Retirement: After 20 years of service as a New Jersey State Trooper, you are eligible to receive a pension, regardless of age, consisting of 50% of your final compensation”
With regard to policemen/firemen and doctors, we are probably comparing apples to oranges. Though, everyone deserves a decent pay, vacation and benefits. However, it takes a lot longer to train physicians, in some cases a decade or more, and there are certainly more police officers and firemen out there than physicians. The grass is always greener on the other side, may be we should all just trade places for a day or two.
So why don’t you physicians stop whining and become cops if they’ve got it so much better?
Cops in Ohio,
“Career: Police Officers
The term “24/7” could have easily been coined for police officers. Even in off-hours, they’re expected to continue to do their job. From patrolling the streets to enforcing traffic laws, a police officer’s job is one of the most important in every community: to keep the streets safe and protect citizens from harm.
Despite the obvious dangers of the job, many people grow up wanting to be police officers — and can’t imagine doing anything else.
Someone who can enforce rules, yet maintain compassion for others. Honesty, sound judgment, and a desire to serve your community are vital.
Government economists expect jobs for police officers to grow as fast as the average for all careers through 2014.
Compensation:
Local police officers earned an average yearly salary of $48,120 in 2006, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. State police earned $52,930. Overtime pay is common for police officers, however, and salaries range widely, depending on location.”
Happyman this is a far cry from 100k-150k
Now don’t go kill yourself when I tell you that in this country, there are people who work packing lines at some of the manufacturing companies, who had ZERO college and some never even graduated high school, who are leaving their jobs after 20 years with over a million dollars in profit sharing.
But the REAL issue here was about a NHS and if healthcare should be a right. Obviously you think it should not be, and I think it should be.
You can think whatever you want, but you will soon find out that the majority agree with me.
The median expected salary for a typical Physician – Emergency Room in the United States is $216,225.
Data as of April 2007
Physician – Emergency Room 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $191,260 $216,225 $239,219
Anon 8:47 –
It was not a physician who likened healthcare to the right to police and fire services. It is also not about “greener grass” – it is about the assertion that everyone is entitled to my service regardless (which they are not) just as they are entitled to the services of the police or fire fighters (whjich they are not).
Indeed. Police service is NOT a right.
There are rural communities all over the country that choose not to fund police. They don’t have police services, except for spotty coverage from the county sheriff and state police.
There are other communities in the middle of big cities that feel the need for service beyond what the city provides, and they fund their own private police force, in addition to the city force.
Anybody who thinks the fire department is a right has never heard of a volunteer fire department.
72% of USA firefighters are volunteer. The majority of the USA is covered by volunteer fire departments.
http://nvfc.org/files/documents/NVFC_Stats_and_Facts_Sheet_2007.pdf
anon 9:02 says “You can think whatever you want, but you will soon find out that the majority agree with me.”
Wow, the majority is always right, huh??? 500 years ago the majority thought the earth was flat. Only 200 years ago the majority thought slavery was acceptable.
Now, the majority understand very little about the economic realities of healthcare. For example, how does one even DEFINE healthcare when you deem it a “right”? That becomes a complicated question if you just stop & think about it.
Politicians probably understand how complex an issue this is, but have little or no incentive to change things. Even if their silly attempts at reform fail, they can always point the blame at the universal scapegoat (doctors) just like insurance companies & pharmaceutical companies do.
Politicians will rather use soundbites like “universal coverage” and “travesty of the numbers of uninsured Americans” to pull at the heartstrings of simpletons & get their vote. In the end, they have GREAT coverage, at OUR expense.
As far as cops are concerned, it’s just not politically sensitive to say “cops are overpaid” or “there are too many cops” as I’ve so aptly demonstrated by this thread. However, there are a LOT of people who agree with me, and have the same basic exposure to cops as I do.
But the REAL issue here was about a NHS and if healthcare should be a right. Obviously you think it should not be, and I think it should be.
You can think whatever you want, but you will soon find out that the majority agree with me.
And I am sure “the majority” have about as many ideas as to how to make “single payer” a right as you do (ie. none). If you have some real ideas let us know.
The majority believe healthcare
- is a right,
- should be unlimited for me, but limited for everyone else,
- other people should pay for it,
- people should be forced to provide the care.
I think most people believe that health care should be taken care of via taxes, like they are in Britain and Canada. Doctors would be government employees.
It makes more sense to me than paying for the education of children. What’s the point? Children whose parents can’t afford their schooling will probably live on welfare forever, so why do we pay for it? Additionally, people like me who don’t want children as well as those that can’t have them still have to pay school taxes, but can’t get health care.
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