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	<title>Comments on: Defensive medicine</title>
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	<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html</link>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-114157</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-114157</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m an aspiring doc and I must say I am so ashamed of medical professionals and how they are acting with this issue of defensive medicine and tort reform. The evidence says to the contrary from the CBO and GAO... You cite weak survey studies to line your pockets and remove jury rights to patients. It&#039;s patently grotesque. And the comment from Anonymous (no relation) on April 4, 2007 at 9:28 am is so incredibly right. You miss so many important factors in this issue. You are blinded by your own greed and it disgust me. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are a praciticing physician/scientist... You should know how weak surveys are as compared to the fiscal studies from the CBO and GAO. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I will continue to retain my opinion that the doctors aligned with the AMA sicken me to the point where I question if I want to enter this profession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m an aspiring doc and I must say I am so ashamed of medical professionals and how they are acting with this issue of defensive medicine and tort reform. The evidence says to the contrary from the CBO and GAO&#8230; You cite weak survey studies to line your pockets and remove jury rights to patients. It&#8217;s patently grotesque. And the comment from Anonymous (no relation) on April 4, 2007 at 9:28 am is so incredibly right. You miss so many important factors in this issue. You are blinded by your own greed and it disgust me. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are a praciticing physician/scientist&#8230; You should know how weak surveys are as compared to the fiscal studies from the CBO and GAO. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I will continue to retain my opinion that the doctors aligned with the AMA sicken me to the point where I question if I want to enter this profession.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-81217</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-81217</guid>
		<description>Highly contested debate, obviously.  Many of our patient&#039;s do not have scientific backgrounds and trust us to make the right decisions for them.  Many of them get their &quot;information&quot; from Googling the net and come to us to decipher or filter the info for them.  As for the CBS story, why did the patient go to the ED if it was &quot;just an ovarian cyst&quot;?  How likely would it have been that her father would have been furious if they hadn&#039;t done any tests on her at all, instead ruling out ectopic appy UTI..., sent her home with pain meds and had her follow up with her GYN the next day?  It&#039;s always easy to Monday morning quarterback the situation and say they &quot;should&#039;ve would&#039;ve could&#039;ve&quot;.  I try to discuss my findings and DDx with each patient before ordering any tests from strep swabs to MRI&#039;s, but more often than not, the patient feels they have not been served properly if no tests are ordered at all.  Remember we are in the era of rapid service and rapid treatment. Patients expect to have answers to their problems RIGHT NOW and don&#039;t expect to have to wait for anything.  Hence we order a test to give them that answer to the level of their satisfaction.  We have to CYA so much nowadays that it can seem we are not directing the patient&#039;s care, but they are guiding us as to what they want.  The fear of litigation drives A LOT in Medicine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Highly contested debate, obviously.  Many of our patient&#8217;s do not have scientific backgrounds and trust us to make the right decisions for them.  Many of them get their &#8220;information&#8221; from Googling the net and come to us to decipher or filter the info for them.  As for the CBS story, why did the patient go to the ED if it was &#8220;just an ovarian cyst&#8221;?  How likely would it have been that her father would have been furious if they hadn&#8217;t done any tests on her at all, instead ruling out ectopic appy UTI&#8230;, sent her home with pain meds and had her follow up with her GYN the next day?  It&#8217;s always easy to Monday morning quarterback the situation and say they &#8220;should&#8217;ve would&#8217;ve could&#8217;ve&#8221;.  I try to discuss my findings and DDx with each patient before ordering any tests from strep swabs to MRI&#8217;s, but more often than not, the patient feels they have not been served properly if no tests are ordered at all.  Remember we are in the era of rapid service and rapid treatment. Patients expect to have answers to their problems RIGHT NOW and don&#8217;t expect to have to wait for anything.  Hence we order a test to give them that answer to the level of their satisfaction.  We have to CYA so much nowadays that it can seem we are not directing the patient&#8217;s care, but they are guiding us as to what they want.  The fear of litigation drives A LOT in Medicine.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck McKay</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-80778</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck McKay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-80778</guid>
		<description>My wife&#039;s former gynecologist carried no malpractice insurance.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;He told each new patient, &quot;I have no insurance, and this place is mortgaged to the hilt.  If you ever decide to sue me, there&#039;s nothing to win.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It may be coincidence, but he retired a few years ago never having been sued by a patient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife&#8217;s former gynecologist carried no malpractice insurance.  </p>
<p>He told each new patient, &#8220;I have no insurance, and this place is mortgaged to the hilt.  If you ever decide to sue me, there&#8217;s nothing to win.&#8221;</p>
<p>It may be coincidence, but he retired a few years ago never having been sued by a patient.</p>
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		<title>By: beajerry</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73977</link>
		<dc:creator>beajerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73977</guid>
		<description>Great post!&lt;br/&gt;You could easily make it into a book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post!<br />You could easily make it into a book.</p>
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		<title>By: girlvet</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73800</link>
		<dc:creator>girlvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73800</guid>
		<description>I was just curious MDs do you financially profit from ordering more complex testing? Overordering of tests has gotten to the point of ridiculousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just curious MDs do you financially profit from ordering more complex testing? Overordering of tests has gotten to the point of ridiculousness.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73645</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73645</guid>
		<description>This will almost certainly change over the coming years, but as a medical student, when I think of clinical situations where malpractice risk rises to the top of my consciousness, it isn&#039;t the stuff where there are virtually unchallenged gold standard practices. The cases that worry me are the ones where the outcomes are serious and every professional and government body has a different take on what to do. Those are the cases where if I follow ACP plaintiff&#039;s counsel can just hire someone from urology or GI or whomever to paint a picture that following ACP or USPSTF or whomever you find most convincing was still negligent care.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I have a graduate degree in health law and I understand that my chances of even having to take such a case all the way to a jury verdict are low and chance of actually losing while adhering to the guidelines of my professional society are even lower, but what I see in my professors and mentors who have been sued at one time or another makes the prospect so terrifying that when it comes time to discuss options with a patient and they ask for my view I might very well abandon all the EBM in favor of &#039;peace of mind&#039; (the patients and mine).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will almost certainly change over the coming years, but as a medical student, when I think of clinical situations where malpractice risk rises to the top of my consciousness, it isn&#8217;t the stuff where there are virtually unchallenged gold standard practices. The cases that worry me are the ones where the outcomes are serious and every professional and government body has a different take on what to do. Those are the cases where if I follow ACP plaintiff&#8217;s counsel can just hire someone from urology or GI or whomever to paint a picture that following ACP or USPSTF or whomever you find most convincing was still negligent care.</p>
<p>I have a graduate degree in health law and I understand that my chances of even having to take such a case all the way to a jury verdict are low and chance of actually losing while adhering to the guidelines of my professional society are even lower, but what I see in my professors and mentors who have been sued at one time or another makes the prospect so terrifying that when it comes time to discuss options with a patient and they ask for my view I might very well abandon all the EBM in favor of &#8216;peace of mind&#8217; (the patients and mine).</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73643</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 23:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73643</guid>
		<description>&quot;There is no obvious right answer.....yet&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Hopefully we will have an answer soon and put this finally to rest. So far the data is leaning towards early PSA screening and earlier biopsy.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Anon at 1:43, and you also have a magic way to figure out which cases are overdiagnosis? You also don&#039;t have your patient have a right to be informed of this potential serious risk?&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I agree that cases with well to moderately differentiated cancer in a single core of the biopsy in a young patient is a difficult situation to deal with. I strongly offer watchful waiting to a select group of my patients and some do choose this option. Of these patients, approximately half of them have seen a PSA progression and then went on to treatment and the other half are still watching their PSA. Unfortunately, prostate needle biopsy underestimates the grade of cancer in nearly 30% of patients. I inform all my patients about the potential for over treatment and the fact that they may have an &quot;insignificant&quot; cancer. However, lately, I have been diagnosing more frequent moderate to poorly differentiated cancer in younger and younger patients. A few years ago, I found a Gleason 3+3 cancer on biopsy in 2/12 cores in a 36 year old African American with a PSA of 7. After much discussion, he opted for a radical prostatectomy. His final pathology revealed Gleason 4+4 with extracapsular extension of the tumor beyond the prostate. His PSA recurred 6 months later. He then received radiation. Currently he is disease free 5 years out and has complete urinary continence (wearing no pads) and has erections with the aid of viagra. Thankfully, he chose treatment rather than watchful waiting. Cases like these and many others keep me going everyday, but you are right medicine is full of gray areas. That is why it is called the &quot;art of medicine&quot; and it is not a pure science. I suppose that is also why we go through 4 years of medical school and for an urologist a 6 year residency. I do have to admit though, after 6 years of practicing after residency, I am still learning every day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There is no obvious right answer&#8230;..yet&#8221;</p>
<p>Hopefully we will have an answer soon and put this finally to rest. So far the data is leaning towards early PSA screening and earlier biopsy.</p>
<p>&#8220;Anon at 1:43, and you also have a magic way to figure out which cases are overdiagnosis? You also don&#8217;t have your patient have a right to be informed of this potential serious risk?&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree that cases with well to moderately differentiated cancer in a single core of the biopsy in a young patient is a difficult situation to deal with. I strongly offer watchful waiting to a select group of my patients and some do choose this option. Of these patients, approximately half of them have seen a PSA progression and then went on to treatment and the other half are still watching their PSA. Unfortunately, prostate needle biopsy underestimates the grade of cancer in nearly 30% of patients. I inform all my patients about the potential for over treatment and the fact that they may have an &#8220;insignificant&#8221; cancer. However, lately, I have been diagnosing more frequent moderate to poorly differentiated cancer in younger and younger patients. A few years ago, I found a Gleason 3+3 cancer on biopsy in 2/12 cores in a 36 year old African American with a PSA of 7. After much discussion, he opted for a radical prostatectomy. His final pathology revealed Gleason 4+4 with extracapsular extension of the tumor beyond the prostate. His PSA recurred 6 months later. He then received radiation. Currently he is disease free 5 years out and has complete urinary continence (wearing no pads) and has erections with the aid of viagra. Thankfully, he chose treatment rather than watchful waiting. Cases like these and many others keep me going everyday, but you are right medicine is full of gray areas. That is why it is called the &#8220;art of medicine&#8221; and it is not a pure science. I suppose that is also why we go through 4 years of medical school and for an urologist a 6 year residency. I do have to admit though, after 6 years of practicing after residency, I am still learning every day.</p>
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		<title>By: Diora</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73639</link>
		<dc:creator>Diora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73639</guid>
		<description>Anon at 1:43, and you also have a magic way to figure out which cases are overdiagnosis? You also don&#039;t have your patient have a right to be informed of this potential serious risk?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon at 1:43, and you also have a magic way to figure out which cases are overdiagnosis? You also don&#8217;t have your patient have a right to be informed of this potential serious risk?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73638</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 19:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73638</guid>
		<description>Sometimes I wonder about Kevin&#039;s reasoning skills.  How do you square the first sentence with the ones that follow:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Defensive medicine is one of the most important drivers in rising health care costs today. There are few reliable studies to back this up. This is because defensive medicine is impossible to quantify.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We can&#039;t define it, but it&#039;s definitely driving up costs significantly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes I wonder about Kevin&#8217;s reasoning skills.  How do you square the first sentence with the ones that follow:</p>
<p>&#8220;Defensive medicine is one of the most important drivers in rising health care costs today. There are few reliable studies to back this up. This is because defensive medicine is impossible to quantify.&#8221;</p>
<p>We can&#8217;t define it, but it&#8217;s definitely driving up costs significantly?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html/comment-page-1#comment-73637</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 19:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/04/defensive-medicine.html#comment-73637</guid>
		<description>By the way, I really like this new doc, and I do plan to ask him about that test he suggested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I really like this new doc, and I do plan to ask him about that test he suggested.</p>
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