Comments on: Second thoughts about a nationalized health system . . . http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:56:00 +0000 hourly 1 By: daniellehttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71846 danielle Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:21:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71846 Well I apologize then. I guess it was the "lose freedom everytime", "like some sort of cattle", and "European paternalism" quotes in reference to government that made me think that.<br/><br/>I'm sure under some sort of government plan that would be implemented in the U.S. you'd be perfectly free to only deal with patients who wanted to pay cash. Well I apologize then. I guess it was the “lose freedom everytime”, “like some sort of cattle”, and “European paternalism” quotes in reference to government that made me think that.

I’m sure under some sort of government plan that would be implemented in the U.S. you’d be perfectly free to only deal with patients who wanted to pay cash.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71833 Anonymous Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:07:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71833 danielle:<br/><br/>You are falling into the bloggers trap of reading into the text what isn't there. I don't have utter disdain for government--just overwheening usurpatious government.<br/><br/>BTW, I don't take insurance and my patients pay cash. I have no contract with insurance companies and provide them no services so I send them no bills. The patients who chose to see me on those terms are people who like me want their healthcare to be a private matter provided by someone whose sole obligation is to them and they are willing to pay for that. There is no reason why we shouldn't be left alone to do that. danielle:

You are falling into the bloggers trap of reading into the text what isn’t there. I don’t have utter disdain for government–just overwheening usurpatious government.

BTW, I don’t take insurance and my patients pay cash. I have no contract with insurance companies and provide them no services so I send them no bills. The patients who chose to see me on those terms are people who like me want their healthcare to be a private matter provided by someone whose sole obligation is to them and they are willing to pay for that. There is no reason why we shouldn’t be left alone to do that.

]]> By: daniellehttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71829 danielle Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:00:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71829 First of all, it seems as if you have a mixed-up idea of what government supported healthcare would be. You make it all sound so very 1984. <br/>Everything you just mentioned that you want in healthcare is absolutely possible under government funded systems. Unless you don't accept any insurance and your patients pay cash, then the only difference is that instead of sending your bill to the insurance company, you send it to the government. It's possible that a little bit more of your tax dollars would be going to fund coverage for all your citizens, but maybe not considering the amount that gets wasted in emergency departments by people with no primary coverage in the first place. <br/><br/>Second, I respect your opinion that you don't want to pay for other people's health coverage. I'm really not looking to debate that issue. The more pressing problem I have with your post is your utter disdain for government. There are a million services the government provides that everyone pays for, and that you no doubt take full advantage of. First of all, it seems as if you have a mixed-up idea of what government supported healthcare would be. You make it all sound so very 1984.
Everything you just mentioned that you want in healthcare is absolutely possible under government funded systems. Unless you don’t accept any insurance and your patients pay cash, then the only difference is that instead of sending your bill to the insurance company, you send it to the government. It’s possible that a little bit more of your tax dollars would be going to fund coverage for all your citizens, but maybe not considering the amount that gets wasted in emergency departments by people with no primary coverage in the first place.

Second, I respect your opinion that you don’t want to pay for other people’s health coverage. I’m really not looking to debate that issue. The more pressing problem I have with your post is your utter disdain for government. There are a million services the government provides that everyone pays for, and that you no doubt take full advantage of.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71824 Anonymous Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:38:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71824 danielle:<br/><br/>I stand by the claim, because it is true.<br/><br/>You don't lose all freedom, but you will lose freedom in that area of your life that the government is taking care of you in.<br/><br/>All I am asking here is the freedom as a physician to sell my services to my patients on terms mutually agreeable to us rather than outside compusion or intrusion, the freedom as a patient to purchase care on terms mutually agreeable to my physician and I rather than with outside compulsion or intrusion, and the freedom as a working citizen to spend the surplus product of my personal labor on the healthcare needs of others in amounts and for persons of my own choosing.<br/><br/>Is that degree of freedom is incompatible with civilized order, then what do you call all of history prior to 1965? danielle:

I stand by the claim, because it is true.

You don’t lose all freedom, but you will lose freedom in that area of your life that the government is taking care of you in.

All I am asking here is the freedom as a physician to sell my services to my patients on terms mutually agreeable to us rather than outside compusion or intrusion, the freedom as a patient to purchase care on terms mutually agreeable to my physician and I rather than with outside compulsion or intrusion, and the freedom as a working citizen to spend the surplus product of my personal labor on the healthcare needs of others in amounts and for persons of my own choosing.

Is that degree of freedom is incompatible with civilized order, then what do you call all of history prior to 1965?

]]> By: daniellehttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71797 danielle Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:40:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71797 " "Here's an article as requested<br/><br/>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/27/IN135224."<br/><br/>Just a pumped up sob story. Sorry to burst your bubble. They should have paid their cobra in light of the fact she had metastatic breast cancer. "<br/><br/>Haha, you obviously didn't read the whole article, just the first few paragraphs.<br/><br/><br/>Of course freedom is not an entitlement. <br/><br/>"Anytime the government takes your money to purchase your needs for you, instead of you doing so directly, you lose freedom, everytime, without fail."<br/><br/>I was simply responding to this naive claim. I was making the point that the amount of freedom you want or feel you deserve has no place in a civilization. It has no basis in real life. You can't have as much freedom as you seem to want, and live in a functioning society. Yet you still feel you should have it. You've either got to pick to live in anarchy, or accept that some of your freedoms will be limited. ” “Here’s an article as requested

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/27/IN135224.“

Just a pumped up sob story. Sorry to burst your bubble. They should have paid their cobra in light of the fact she had metastatic breast cancer. “

Haha, you obviously didn’t read the whole article, just the first few paragraphs.

Of course freedom is not an entitlement.

“Anytime the government takes your money to purchase your needs for you, instead of you doing so directly, you lose freedom, everytime, without fail.”

I was simply responding to this naive claim. I was making the point that the amount of freedom you want or feel you deserve has no place in a civilization. It has no basis in real life. You can’t have as much freedom as you seem to want, and live in a functioning society. Yet you still feel you should have it. You’ve either got to pick to live in anarchy, or accept that some of your freedoms will be limited.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71792 Anonymous Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:52:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71792 Let us just get government out of the whole mess. This includes the market oligopoly position given to the providers via licensing and scope of practice limitations. Let us also remove the government (i.e. tax payer) funding for the large portion of training and remove all restrictions on the opening of new schools. You guys wouldn't last in an open and free market. The last time allopathic medicine had to compete in an open and free market it couldn't even hold its own against homeopathy. Let us just get government out of the whole mess. This includes the market oligopoly position given to the providers via licensing and scope of practice limitations. Let us also remove the government (i.e. tax payer) funding for the large portion of training and remove all restrictions on the opening of new schools. You guys wouldn’t last in an open and free market. The last time allopathic medicine had to compete in an open and free market it couldn’t even hold its own against homeopathy.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71771 Anonymous Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:39:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71771 Freedom is not an entitlement. It is an unalienable right. Learn the difference. Failing to do so will result in selling your rights for a mess of potage.<br/><br/>"Total freedom" is anarchy and no one here is advocating that. We formed a government to prevent anarchy. We limited it to preserve liberty.<br/><br/>We granted specific enumerated powers to the federal government in order to secure our liberties. Taking care of personal health care expenses and eliminating my freedom to take personal financial risks were not among the enumerated powers given to the federal government. Per the 10th amendment of the bill of rights, they are therefore prohibited from doing so. When they do, they are enfringing on my rights (not my entitlements).<br/><br/>I don't give anything to "society". I give a lot to people. I also have a lot confiscated from me in the name of "society" for the personal benefit of other people. Conservatives favor the former, collectivist leftists the latter. Conservatives tend to give more to charity than liberals, so why are you lecturing someone on "giving back" because they have conservative views?<br/><br/>Having money confiscated by the government to meet someone elses "need" is not "giving", it is getting looted. There is no rational reason why someone elses need creates my obligation. There may be religious reasons, but those can only be fullfilled by voluntary giving, not robbing the nonconsenting. Freedom is not an entitlement. It is an unalienable right. Learn the difference. Failing to do so will result in selling your rights for a mess of potage.

“Total freedom” is anarchy and no one here is advocating that. We formed a government to prevent anarchy. We limited it to preserve liberty.

We granted specific enumerated powers to the federal government in order to secure our liberties. Taking care of personal health care expenses and eliminating my freedom to take personal financial risks were not among the enumerated powers given to the federal government. Per the 10th amendment of the bill of rights, they are therefore prohibited from doing so. When they do, they are enfringing on my rights (not my entitlements).

I don’t give anything to “society”. I give a lot to people. I also have a lot confiscated from me in the name of “society” for the personal benefit of other people. Conservatives favor the former, collectivist leftists the latter. Conservatives tend to give more to charity than liberals, so why are you lecturing someone on “giving back” because they have conservative views?

Having money confiscated by the government to meet someone elses “need” is not “giving”, it is getting looted. There is no rational reason why someone elses need creates my obligation. There may be religious reasons, but those can only be fullfilled by voluntary giving, not robbing the nonconsenting.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71769 Anonymous Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:18:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71769 "When are you going to stop feeling absolutely entitled to all the freedom you want, without giving anything back to the society that enables that freedom?"<br/><br/>How about you Lefties stop spitting on our soldiers and sign up for a couple in Iraq. May grow some hair on your chest. “When are you going to stop feeling absolutely entitled to all the freedom you want, without giving anything back to the society that enables that freedom?”

How about you Lefties stop spitting on our soldiers and sign up for a couple in Iraq. May grow some hair on your chest.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71768 Anonymous Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:16:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71768 "Here's an article as requested<br/><br/>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/27/IN135224."<br/><br/>Just a pumped up sob story. Sorry to burst your bubble. They should have paid their cobra in light of the fact she had metastatic breast cancer. There is nothing in the Constitution that says we need to protect people from their own ill conceived decisions. Unfortunately the Left has brainwashed us all into believing that we should not be held accountable for our own actions... “Here’s an article as requested

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/27/IN135224.“

Just a pumped up sob story. Sorry to burst your bubble. They should have paid their cobra in light of the fact she had metastatic breast cancer. There is nothing in the Constitution that says we need to protect people from their own ill conceived decisions. Unfortunately the Left has brainwashed us all into believing that we should not be held accountable for our own actions…

]]> By: daniellehttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-nationalized.html#comment-71756 danielle Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:01:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/02/second-thoughts-about-a-nationalized-health-system.html#comment-71756 Simply living in any kind of organized society makes you lose freedom. <br/><br/>If you want total freedom, I suggest you move to a remote area of the amazon and that way you won't have to put up with government, with rules, with other people, namely with civilization.<br/><br/>You'll have no means to make money, you'll live in constant fear of death, there will be no infrastructure, no services for you when you're old and sick...but hey, at least you'll have total freedom right?<br/><br/>When are you going to stop feeling absolutely entitled to all the freedom you want, without giving anything back to the society that enables that freedom? Simply living in any kind of organized society makes you lose freedom.

If you want total freedom, I suggest you move to a remote area of the amazon and that way you won’t have to put up with government, with rules, with other people, namely with civilization.

You’ll have no means to make money, you’ll live in constant fear of death, there will be no infrastructure, no services for you when you’re old and sick…but hey, at least you’ll have total freedom right?

When are you going to stop feeling absolutely entitled to all the freedom you want, without giving anything back to the society that enables that freedom?

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