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	<title>Comments on: A woman dies after receiving 8 grams of Dilantin</title>
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	<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html</link>
	<description>medical blog</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-73033</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-73033</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Is there a cultural element to this Nurse or institution where you dont question the doctor. Is critical thinking encouragee with the Nursing staff?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You have to overcome cultural barriers to work in some fields. Not questioning an order is okay when you work at a grocery store, its not okay when you work in an ER.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This woman should definitely loose her license to practice. There were so many mistakes made:&lt;br/&gt;1) I&#039;m not a nurse, but AFAIK Dilantin isn&#039;t an uncommon drug in the ER. She should have had a concept about what dosage range to give. She obviously didn&#039;t.&lt;br/&gt;2) She had to give thirty-two vials  of a medication. &lt;br/&gt;3) She cleared out, I think, three Pyxis machines to get the vials.&lt;br/&gt;4) She had two give it in two IV bags. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Unfortunately, it looks like her license has not been suspended nor does she have any disciplines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Is there a cultural element to this Nurse or institution where you dont question the doctor. Is critical thinking encouragee with the Nursing staff?</i></p>
<p>You have to overcome cultural barriers to work in some fields. Not questioning an order is okay when you work at a grocery store, its not okay when you work in an ER.</p>
<p>This woman should definitely loose her license to practice. There were so many mistakes made:<br />1) I&#8217;m not a nurse, but AFAIK Dilantin isn&#8217;t an uncommon drug in the ER. She should have had a concept about what dosage range to give. She obviously didn&#8217;t.<br />2) She had to give thirty-two vials  of a medication. <br />3) She cleared out, I think, three Pyxis machines to get the vials.<br />4) She had two give it in two IV bags. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, it looks like her license has not been suspended nor does she have any disciplines.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70950</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70950</guid>
		<description>Anon 11:34 -- The doctor ordered the correct dosage, the nurse gave 10x the correct dose.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I suspect the employer fired the doc for contacting the family directly.   for our ER group, that would be a serious violation of our risk management procedures.   A meeting with the family can be arranged for a disclosure or discussion (or apology) but a personal, out-of-channel phone call would *not* be a good idea.   I doubt I would fire a doc for it, but if I told a doc not to, and he did anyway, it would not be beyond the pale. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;He may win his suit by playing the whistle-blower card.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon 11:34 &#8212; The doctor ordered the correct dosage, the nurse gave 10x the correct dose.</p>
<p>I suspect the employer fired the doc for contacting the family directly.   for our ER group, that would be a serious violation of our risk management procedures.   A meeting with the family can be arranged for a disclosure or discussion (or apology) but a personal, out-of-channel phone call would *not* be a good idea.   I doubt I would fire a doc for it, but if I told a doc not to, and he did anyway, it would not be beyond the pale. </p>
<p>He may win his suit by playing the whistle-blower card.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70865</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70865</guid>
		<description>We need more information on 1 - the MD order and 2 - why the nurse did not question or refuse to give that dose. Is there a cultural element to this Nurse or institution where you dont question the doctor. Is critical thinking encouragee with the Nursing staff? My antidotal experience is when working with non-assertive nurses not willing to question a order or their own jusdgment is that I feel obligated to watch them closely as I have interviened a number of times preventing serious errors in the ER (although none as bad as this situation). The most dangerous nurse is one who does not critically think, one that just does without questioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need more information on 1 &#8211; the MD order and 2 &#8211; why the nurse did not question or refuse to give that dose. Is there a cultural element to this Nurse or institution where you dont question the doctor. Is critical thinking encouragee with the Nursing staff? My antidotal experience is when working with non-assertive nurses not willing to question a order or their own jusdgment is that I feel obligated to watch them closely as I have interviened a number of times preventing serious errors in the ER (although none as bad as this situation). The most dangerous nurse is one who does not critically think, one that just does without questioning.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70852</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70852</guid>
		<description>For starters attitudes need to change. When I was hospitalized I was given the wrong medication at 3:00 in the morning. When I looked at it I knew it did not look at all like the previous meds of the same kind. Before taking I questioned the nurse if this was really my medication. She asked me my name,  I told her, she then grabbed them from my hand, glared at me and told me &quot;Hell No&quot; they aren&#039;t yours. Her actions and remarks implied i did something wrong instead of her refusing to double check things. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Nurses really need to have more discipline that what they obviously receive. They blame everyone except themselves when they make a mistake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For starters attitudes need to change. When I was hospitalized I was given the wrong medication at 3:00 in the morning. When I looked at it I knew it did not look at all like the previous meds of the same kind. Before taking I questioned the nurse if this was really my medication. She asked me my name,  I told her, she then grabbed them from my hand, glared at me and told me &#8220;Hell No&#8221; they aren&#8217;t yours. Her actions and remarks implied i did something wrong instead of her refusing to double check things. </p>
<p>Nurses really need to have more discipline that what they obviously receive. They blame everyone except themselves when they make a mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70847</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70847</guid>
		<description>I am duly chastised by the toughest anonymouse in cyberspace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am duly chastised by the toughest anonymouse in cyberspace.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70846</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>about what I expected nothing ever constructive to say. You wouldn&#039;t know &quot;responsibility&quot; if it bit you in the ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>about what I expected nothing ever constructive to say. You wouldn&#8217;t know &#8220;responsibility&#8221; if it bit you in the ass.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70843</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70843</guid>
		<description>Probably around the same time YOU take some responsibility for your situation and stop whining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably around the same time YOU take some responsibility for your situation and stop whining.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70841</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70841</guid>
		<description>re: &quot;So it&#039;s everyone else&#039;s fault that a health care professional didn&#039;t do their job, Anon 5:35?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Have you ever taken responsibility for anything?&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;CJDlite when do you ever have anything constructive to say? Is being anonymouse devil&#039;s advocate how you get your rocks off? Have you ever been a health care professional? Have you ever even bothered to look at what is wrong with the system and how the present system of law does nothing to correct it? The nurse rightly lost her job and probably will never work in this field again. A husband lost his wife and and children lost their mother. The sad fact is if this did go to trial (it didn&#039;t) you can bet the ER doc would have his ass sued...even though he did nothing wrong. When will YOU ever be anything more than a fly on the wall?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: &#8220;So it&#8217;s everyone else&#8217;s fault that a health care professional didn&#8217;t do their job, Anon 5:35?</p>
<p>Have you ever taken responsibility for anything?&#8221;</p>
<p>CJDlite when do you ever have anything constructive to say? Is being anonymouse devil&#8217;s advocate how you get your rocks off? Have you ever been a health care professional? Have you ever even bothered to look at what is wrong with the system and how the present system of law does nothing to correct it? The nurse rightly lost her job and probably will never work in this field again. A husband lost his wife and and children lost their mother. The sad fact is if this did go to trial (it didn&#8217;t) you can bet the ER doc would have his ass sued&#8230;even though he did nothing wrong. When will YOU ever be anything more than a fly on the wall?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70835</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>News flash: Sometimes you *do* need to hold one individual accountable when they stray this far outside the bounds of prudence and standards of care.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Safe systems and doublechecks are not a substitute for critical thinking and independent judgment.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In any case, according to the article, none of her coworkers thought to question her, even though they saw she was searching all over the hospital for those 32 vials of Dilantin. So a doublecheck might well have failed in this case.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I for one would like to see a happy medium between blaming every individual involved in an error and excusing every error as a systems problem.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;All errors are not created the same; some are more egregious than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>News flash: Sometimes you *do* need to hold one individual accountable when they stray this far outside the bounds of prudence and standards of care.</p>
<p>Safe systems and doublechecks are not a substitute for critical thinking and independent judgment.</p>
<p>In any case, according to the article, none of her coworkers thought to question her, even though they saw she was searching all over the hospital for those 32 vials of Dilantin. So a doublecheck might well have failed in this case.</p>
<p>I for one would like to see a happy medium between blaming every individual involved in an error and excusing every error as a systems problem.</p>
<p>All errors are not created the same; some are more egregious than others.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/01/woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of.html/comment-page-1#comment-70831</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2007/01/a-woman-dies-after-receiving-8-grams-of-dilantin.html#comment-70831</guid>
		<description>So it&#039;s everyone else&#039;s fault that a health care professional didn&#039;t do their job, Anon 5:35?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Have you ever taken responsibility for anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it&#8217;s everyone else&#8217;s fault that a health care professional didn&#8217;t do their job, Anon 5:35?</p>
<p>Have you ever taken responsibility for anything?</p>
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