Thursday, November 30, 200615
An EMT punches a psychiatric patient
No matter what the circumstance, this is not allowed.
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Comments
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Anonymous
Paramedics are not allowed to defend themselves against an assault?
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SarahW
Read the article.
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Anonymous
I did. Spitting in someone's face is battery. If you get exposed to HIV or hepatitis C from some dirtbag, you'd want to punch him too.
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alwin
"Defend yourself" is one thing, "revenge yourself" another. The patient was locked down and defenseless, and posed no ability - other than spitting - to cause harm.
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Anonymous
How about a couple of 14 gauge IVs then. Is that OK? It happens all the time, I assure you.
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SarahW
The article notes that the patient was positioned supine instead of prone against the advice of the medical staff at the facility.
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Anonymous
Spitting in someone's face is an assault. In some situations, it is a felony assault. You may think of it as some benign form of constitutionally-protected protest, but it isn't.
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Anonymous
That's what security is for. Let them choke the guy to deat for all I care. Then it's "in the line of duty". But you can't touch them. I actually saw a nurse walk into the nurse managers office last week at my inner city ER and say "I have a license to carry". Why can't I keep my weapon on me in the waiting room triage?
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SarahW
Scalpel,
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scalpel
BS. There is no security on the back of an ambulance. If the guy had a knife and stabbed the paramedic, would you see my point?
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scalpel
And it isn't retaliation or punishment, and it doesn't matter if the person knows what he is doing ot not.
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Gasman
It's a gamble. Spit in someones face and perhaps they are feeling angelic and turn the other cheek. Maybe they had a bad day and the spitter just happens to be the 27th person to push your button, which just happens to be one time too many.
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Anonymous
The guy was crazy, so he was as responsible for his actions as pets are when they to scratch or bite the vet.
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scalpel
Pets can't transmit hepatitis C. But if your pet tiger or boa had the vet by the throat, it would likely receive much worse than a punch. Bad analogy.
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Anonymous
First and foremost the 'patient' was a prisoner of the state. Secondarily he had a psyciatric behavior, though the article is not clear whether it was a medically diagnosed condition.
Post a Comment »12:51 PM
1:44 PM
1:57 PM
But the point that scalpel makes is a good one. What if it's a situation where the patient decides it's a good idea to punch the medic? What if the patient pulls the IV standard off a gurney and uses it as a club? Can a medic defend themselves then? Not according to the author of this article.
I suppose that, as long as we allow medics to refuse to treat a violent patient - and give them appropriate legal safeguards to protect them in court and against adminstrators - then the proposition that Kevin puts forth is reasonable. But until then a blanket policy of "no self-defense under any circumstances" is unreasonable.
2:53 PM
4:07 PM
You may feel like punching a nutjob who can't control themselves because they spit on you, but you can't do that. You protect yourself from spit, is what you do.
9:09 PM
When someone assaults you, you have the right to defend yourself. While punching in the face may seem to be a more vigorous form of self-defense than you might feel is justified, the intentional exposure to potentially life-threatening body fluids deserves a robust defense. I think his response was defensible.
-scalpel
12:35 AM
1:26 AM
There is a difference between self-defense and physical punishment.
What would ordinarily be felony assault may not be so in the case of a person who is diseased and whose conduct is the result of the disease...who is a person with no more capacity to restrain himself than a dumb animal.
It makes little sense to physically punish and "teach a lesson to" a person who can't make sense or react in a rational way to the punishment...it didn't end the spitting in this case.
9:41 AM
Stab.
"Security!"
Stab.
"SECURITY!"
Stab.
At some point, you certainly CAN punch the guy. You just don't think spitting is as bad as stabbing. Maybe it isn't, but maybe it is.
9:50 AM
Self defense is aimed at stoopping further attacks. Eventually in the case in question, it did.
9:52 AM
Because getting punched in the face is a perfectly conceivable risk associated with spitting in a persons face, then very likely the person doing the punching has a valid excuse for responding in the manner the spitter expected. If the would be spitter wanted a different reaction, then he would not have spit. If the spitter claims that his actions were the result of forces/mental state beyond his control, then the hitter gets the same pass.
2:02 PM
Yet the vet isn't allowed to punch people's pets, so why should this be different. Vets know how to protect themselves without hurting the pets; doctors supposedly know how to deal with psychiatric patients.
4:02 PM
Maybe it would have been better to shoot the guy with a tranquilizer dart before entering the cell, like a vet would do. Of course if the guy fell and hurt himself, or got oversedated, then there would be a big stink too.
Of course paramedics aren't veterinarians or physicians. They are hard working, underpaid, good-hearted people who deserve our respect for what they do.
4:45 PM
As a prisoner, he needed to be treated as such. The police officers present seemed to be ineffective at protecting the civilian EMTs acting under the direction of the department of Corrections (or whatever state entity had legal custody and control of the prisoner).
It would seem that when a prisoner is overpowering his police escort then civilians assisting and acting at the direction of the police should be cut some slack. The EMTs lack the police paramilitary training in restraintand control of violent prisoners.
While the EMT's employer might have had a policy about 'workplace violence' I doubt that the employer provided effective training to these guys that adequately prepared them for dealing with a violent psychotic criminal.
Should an EMT punch a patient? Generally speaking, no. But this case is anything but general.
8:10 PM