Comments on: Futile treatment is on the rise http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:18:00 +0000 hourly 1 By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63790 Anonymous Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:28:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63790 The whole "lawsuits made us do it" line is simply a way of avoiding responsibility as a professional. The whole “lawsuits made us do it” line is simply a way of avoiding responsibility as a professional.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63779 Anonymous Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:02:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63779 Regarding DNRs: Even if you have one, it's no guarantee that it will stop medical personnel from taking "heroic measures". Following a series of strokes, my uncle was placed in a nursing home. My mother was his POA and talked with him about DNRs; he requested such an order, and it was placed in his chart.<br/><br/>Nevertheless, he had another major stroke while at the nursing home and medical staff intervened. When he stabilized, a nurse told my mother that she was so pleased because they thought they'd lost him.<br/><br/>My uncle did not recover fully. He suffered brain damage and remained bedridden at the nursing home until his death two years later. <br/><br/>Two morals here, I suppose. One, I guess you need to make very clear to anyone who might treat yourself or a relative that there IS a DNR on record. Two, not everybody in this world is looking for a lawsuit. My family, while not pleased that the DNR was ignored, understood that the people who worked on my uncle were probably dedicated cargivers who must find it nearly as difficult as the families to let go sometimes. Regarding DNRs: Even if you have one, it’s no guarantee that it will stop medical personnel from taking “heroic measures”. Following a series of strokes, my uncle was placed in a nursing home. My mother was his POA and talked with him about DNRs; he requested such an order, and it was placed in his chart.

Nevertheless, he had another major stroke while at the nursing home and medical staff intervened. When he stabilized, a nurse told my mother that she was so pleased because they thought they’d lost him.

My uncle did not recover fully. He suffered brain damage and remained bedridden at the nursing home until his death two years later.

Two morals here, I suppose. One, I guess you need to make very clear to anyone who might treat yourself or a relative that there IS a DNR on record. Two, not everybody in this world is looking for a lawsuit. My family, while not pleased that the DNR was ignored, understood that the people who worked on my uncle were probably dedicated cargivers who must find it nearly as difficult as the families to let go sometimes.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63778 Anonymous Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:35:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63778 Sometimes patients will choose treatment just as a way of showing family that they "wanted to try and fight it." They're afraid not to fight for fear that family will say "why didn't she atleast try to fight this, who knows what would have happened if she had." <br/><br/>We are so programmed to think that only the very weak would actually give up anything without a fight. As a society we are ignorant to the fact that it is the very STRONG who say's "no thanks Dr. I'm not fighting this no win diagnosis, I want quality time with my family now, you can keep the quantity."<br/><br/>How many times have you heard people say, following a death..."He/she fought so hard to beat this so that they could have more time to spend with us." We are such a self important bunch of people that we have a hard time excepting anything until WE are ready to let it go..A sad reality! Sometimes patients will choose treatment just as a way of showing family that they “wanted to try and fight it.” They’re afraid not to fight for fear that family will say “why didn’t she atleast try to fight this, who knows what would have happened if she had.”

We are so programmed to think that only the very weak would actually give up anything without a fight. As a society we are ignorant to the fact that it is the very STRONG who say’s “no thanks Dr. I’m not fighting this no win diagnosis, I want quality time with my family now, you can keep the quantity.”

How many times have you heard people say, following a death…”He/she fought so hard to beat this so that they could have more time to spend with us.” We are such a self important bunch of people that we have a hard time excepting anything until WE are ready to let it go..A sad reality!

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63770 Anonymous Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:45:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63770 There is a financial incentive for the oncologist to offer hope and chemo. In my limited experience (5 years as an internist), the oncologists usually do not give chemo to people with a poor performance status. What happens much more frequently is that the patients walk into the transfusion center for their chemo looking okay, and then the poison makes them nauseous and dehydrated for the next week. Then they show up in the ER and the admitting Internist and ER doc grouse about how aggressive and greedy the oncologist is. <br/><br/>Neither the internist nor the ER doc would have felt comfortable a week before telling the ambulatory patient they should go home and die. There is a financial incentive for the oncologist to offer hope and chemo. In my limited experience (5 years as an internist), the oncologists usually do not give chemo to people with a poor performance status. What happens much more frequently is that the patients walk into the transfusion center for their chemo looking okay, and then the poison makes them nauseous and dehydrated for the next week. Then they show up in the ER and the admitting Internist and ER doc grouse about how aggressive and greedy the oncologist is.

Neither the internist nor the ER doc would have felt comfortable a week before telling the ambulatory patient they should go home and die.

]]> By: Janhttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63766 Jan Sun, 04 Jun 2006 03:21:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63766 A personal anecdote...<br/>My mother had T-cell lymphoma with brain mets - the first CNS T-cell lymphoma her oncologist had ever treated. She had underlying CAD, s/p CABG, then developed pulmonary dz from the CHOP and had to stop it after 3 cycles. Failed XRT, then was started on Taxol. The doc had the nerve to refer her to Stanford for txplt eval - when I knew before she went that she wasn't a candidate given her co-morbidities. I had to ask the oncologist to stop offering her more chemo and false hope (and discard the rose colored glasses). <br/>She died at home a month after her referral to hospice. A personal anecdote…
My mother had T-cell lymphoma with brain mets – the first CNS T-cell lymphoma her oncologist had ever treated. She had underlying CAD, s/p CABG, then developed pulmonary dz from the CHOP and had to stop it after 3 cycles. Failed XRT, then was started on Taxol. The doc had the nerve to refer her to Stanford for txplt eval – when I knew before she went that she wasn’t a candidate given her co-morbidities. I had to ask the oncologist to stop offering her more chemo and false hope (and discard the rose colored glasses).
She died at home a month after her referral to hospice.

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63763 Anonymous Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:33:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63763 Dr. Onc, <br/><br/>No offense intended to you personally. I don't want to get involved with a tit-for-tat list of irritants. It is a very special person that goes into Onc Many people on this blog take generalizations too literally and personally which limits good discussion. <br/><br/>But don't you think it is disingenious to still be giving chemo if you really do think it is futile and that "they should be led to the water"? Is it the social and legal climate that makes us do this? I can be accused of the same thing when I intubate someone that I know is a futile move but have to do it because:<br/><br/>1) The family says "do everything". When I ask them if this is what the patient would have wanted they pause briefly (because they know the answer is NO), but then say YES, YES anyway.<br/><br/>2) The outcome of course is going to be bad and you are more likely to get sued if you are perceived as "giving up" or "not doing enough" Dr. Onc,

No offense intended to you personally. I don’t want to get involved with a tit-for-tat list of irritants. It is a very special person that goes into Onc Many people on this blog take generalizations too literally and personally which limits good discussion.

But don’t you think it is disingenious to still be giving chemo if you really do think it is futile and that “they should be led to the water”? Is it the social and legal climate that makes us do this? I can be accused of the same thing when I intubate someone that I know is a futile move but have to do it because:

1) The family says “do everything”. When I ask them if this is what the patient would have wanted they pause briefly (because they know the answer is NO), but then say YES, YES anyway.

2) The outcome of course is going to be bad and you are more likely to get sued if you are perceived as “giving up” or “not doing enough”

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63762 Anonymous Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:15:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63762 Yes. YES! Step by step!! Yes. YES! Step by step!!

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63761 Anonymous Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:33:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63761 You know guys MOST of the times the "lazy" oncologist has addressed this issue with the family. The family has chosen not to pursue hospice. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Believe it or not it can be frustrating for the oncologist too. Shall I go step by step about what irritates me about ER docs? You know guys MOST of the times the “lazy” oncologist has addressed this issue with the family. The family has chosen not to pursue hospice. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. Believe it or not it can be frustrating for the oncologist too. Shall I go step by step about what irritates me about ER docs?

]]> By: Anonymoushttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63757 Anonymous Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:52:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63757 Amen<br/><br/>(a retired ER doc) Amen

(a retired ER doc)

]]> By: JBhttp://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-rise.html#comment-63755 JB Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:16:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/06/futile-treatment-is-on-the-rise.html#comment-63755 This is perhaps my biggest single frustration as an ER doc. Family members bring their loved one that looks like a gasping corpse. Death is right in front of them and they can't acknowledge it, nor apparently can their oncologist who gave them chemo last week. When you have metastatic cancer, are encephalopathic, have skin jaundiced as a pumpkin, a tongue that looks like a prune, and are breathing like a fish it is time to peacefully let your loved one die. Yet family members routinely want me to resuscitate dying flesh and flog their body with tubes and lines so they can be tortured another week or two longer. NO ONE WANTS THEIR LIFE TO END THIS WAY, but family members willingly do this to their loved ones. I try to kindly talk about the option of DNR and hospice care and I often get an incredulous, angry response. I blame the oncologist, the PCP, the family, and also the patient for not having an advanced directive spelling it out for panicked family members. This is perhaps my biggest single frustration as an ER doc. Family members bring their loved one that looks like a gasping corpse. Death is right in front of them and they can’t acknowledge it, nor apparently can their oncologist who gave them chemo last week. When you have metastatic cancer, are encephalopathic, have skin jaundiced as a pumpkin, a tongue that looks like a prune, and are breathing like a fish it is time to peacefully let your loved one die. Yet family members routinely want me to resuscitate dying flesh and flog their body with tubes and lines so they can be tortured another week or two longer. NO ONE WANTS THEIR LIFE TO END THIS WAY, but family members willingly do this to their loved ones. I try to kindly talk about the option of DNR and hospice care and I often get an incredulous, angry response. I blame the oncologist, the PCP, the family, and also the patient for not having an advanced directive spelling it out for panicked family members.

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