in Uncategorized | 52 responses

Stories of patients hurt by the liability crisis:

More and more Americans aren’t getting the care they need when they need it because our legal system has turned into a lawsuit lottery where a few win and the rest of us lose. The “disappearing doctor” phenomenon is getting progressively and rapidly worse. It is an increasingly serious threat to everyone’s ability to get the care they need.
These are just a few of the reports on the hurting patients and the lawsuit filled, but health care starved communities which are feeling first hand the need for common sense federal medical liability reforms.

(via PointofLaw.com)

Comments

Anonymous
If greedy and incompetent physicians were not butchering, poisoning, and otherwise abusing their helpless victims, there would be no problem. It is time that we recognize that MDs are actually highly skilled trademen, not executives who are capable of working without any supervision.
I am confident that once attorneys who are dedicated to their clients’ welfare succeed in cleaning up the cesspit that is the current medical establishment, and once competent executives and managers assume control of the practice of medicine in this country, there will be little or no need for malpractice insurance.
Anonymous
I sure as hell hope the above comment is a joke.
Anonymous
It most assuredly is not a joke. Medical care, like war, is too important to be left in the charge of its practioners. In any functional organization, strategy (goals, objectives, what is to be done) is in the hands of executives. Tasks in the furtherance of the declared goals are assigned by managers and carried out by workers, who have that degree of training necessary to accomplish their assigned tasks. Medicine is no different. Placing the decision making power in the hands of the practioners (MDs) makes as much sense as letting the men on the assembly lines run General Motors.
In the current dysfunctional medical system, it is med/mal attorneys who mitigate the damage to society caused by arrogant, self-directed physicians and other profiteers (e.g., drug manufacturers).
Anonymous
anon 3:37 must be the sodomite that the blogging sodomee here always talks about. They are both crazy raving lunatics.
Anonymous
One might argue that physicians are already like the executives at GM, in that they do all medical decision making, and the nurses, pharmacists, phlebotomists, technicians, therapists, medical assistants, etc. who carry out those decisions and orders are much like the assemblymen.
Anonymous
“Medical care, like war, is too important to be left in the charge of its practioners. In any functional organization, strategy (goals, objectives, what is to be done) is in the hands of executives”
Ahh like old Mr. Rumsfeldt “the executive”. Have you been reading the news about what those greedy self-centered generals have been saying the last few days about Rumsfeldt? I always love it when someone who has no clue as to what is going on pontificates like he/she is an expert.
bye bye moron.
Anonymous
“I always love it when someone who has no clue as to what is going on pontificates like he/she is an expert.”
Is that why you’re always posting about the law?
RL
From the article linked to above:
“A shortage of doctors and technologists fueled in part by doctors afraid of lawsuits, is forcing patients to wait months for routine mammograms. Cindy Davis Hirsch, 55, of Mount Laurel, NJ was shocked when she learned she had to wait 6 months for a mammogram. “I have been going once a year forever,” said Hirsch. “I have really good insurance. It never entered my mind it would affect me to this extent.” (The Florida Times-Union, February 15, 2003)”
This is poor bullshit. How would I know? Because I live in Mt. Laurel, NJ, and I have never had any problems getting an appointment for a mammogram. At the biggest radiology practice here in my area, South Jersey Radiology, I have waited 1-2 weeks for a screening mammogram. And that’s it.
In fact, I haven’t had any problems getting medical appointments of any sort, even though here in the Philadelphia, PA/ South Jersey area, there has long been a malpractice problem. In the past four years, I’ve had the following waits: Neurosurgeon in New Jersey – 7 weeks; Spine MRI in NJ – 3 weeks; breast cancer surgeon in Phila.- 5 weeks; nerve conduction studies in Phila. done by a neurologist – 3 weeks; orthopedic surgeon in Phila.- 4 weeks; rehab. specialist in Phila. – 4 weeks.
In the case of Mt. Laurel woman in the link above, the Florida newspaper reporter should have done some fact-checking. Frankly, this particular case, to me, is nothing more than an urban legend.
Anonymous
An excellent post, RL (5:34). The claim that patients suffer because physicians must protect themselves from the financial consequences of their malpractice is nothing but crude propaganda. No one believes this, and the whining of these overpaid butchers is offensive in the extreme.
Do the “health professionals” really believe that they can with impunity cut, poison, burn, and maim their helpless victims? The public spirited attorneys who have chosen to specialize in medical malpractice rather than other, less stressful and better paid areas of the legal system, should be honored for their selfless work on behalf of those whose lives have been ruined (or terminated) by the greedy and self-serving medical industry.
Anonymous
“Do the “health professionals” really believe that they can with impunity cut, poison, burn, and maim their helpless victims? The public spirited attorneys who have chosen to specialize in medical malpractice rather than other, less stressful and better paid areas of the legal system, should be honored for their selfless work on behalf of those whose lives have been ruined (or terminated) by the greedy and self-serving medical industry.”
Good God, you are so full of self righteous shit. You’ve got to be a sodomite lawyer. Public spirited attornies? Please – how about self seving greedy bastards who’ve ruined medicine.
Anonymous
My God, You have met your match in this attorney..CJD has always been rather polite and informative, even when being called terrible names. I think this guy will even the score. He seems as pompus and infuriated as what you guys do.
Anonymous
If I am a highly skilled trademen, as stated in the first post, then so be it, I will work like one. Go ahead, tell me when to perform surgery – take out an appendix, gallbladder, repair a hernia, etc. But I only work 8 to 5 and I am off weekends and holidays, so don’t come to me with your problems then. Also, I would like to form a union, and yes, I would like to go on strike at times.,,
Anonymous
these same assholes will come running to us the next time they get a runny nose, see a drop of blood in their stool…I will have a great time ordering unnecessary tests and referrals and sticking them for blood…I have to go get some bigger guage venipuncture needles, excuse me…
Anonymous
I’ve read the work of the above self righteous asshole on some sites before…his fetish is to write the “kill, maim butcher” crap stuff, and yes, he is another pre-med failure sodomite. He deserves a good Hate-fuck just like the rest of them. I’d be happy to oblige.
Anonymous
I am not a physician, but as an economist, I am aware that in most other industries, an increase in the cost of doing business is usually mitigated by passing the costs on to the consumer.
If there are no OBGYN docs in some town in Mississippi, wouldn’t any doctor that practices there have full market power? Could he not charge higher rates to compensate, even over-compensate, himself for the higher liability insurance?
Anonymous
“Neurosurgeon in New Jersey – 7 weeks;”
If you had cord compression you might not think 7 weeks is such a good thing that is unless you want to be a para.
Michael Rack, MD
“If there are no OBGYN docs in some town in Mississippi, wouldn’t any doctor that practices there have full market power? Could he not charge higher rates…”
1. Rates are set by insurance companies.
2. If he refuses to accept certain insurance plans, those pts will drive for their prenatal care to a larger city or will just not recieve prenatal care
3. The hospital where he delivers the babies of his patients will require the ob/gyn to also, when on call, deliver the babies of those pts without an ob/gyn.
Anonymous
I am not a physician, but as an economist, I am aware that in most industries an increase in the cost of doing business is mitigated by passing the costs on to the consumer.
If there are no OBGYN physicians in a town in Mississippi, couldn’t a physician raise his rates to compensate, even overcompensate himself for the higher liability insurance?
Anirban
How sad. Doctors remain amidst s free market economy, see the free enterprise flourishing but will never get the benefit of it by a Govt. mandated system. Malpractice lawyers reap the goods of a free market but without any of its risks, courtesy the same govt. mandated legislature. Seems like, we are just the ants at the bottom of the hip.
Anonymous
Dear anon 5:28
You are completely correct. That would be the logical thing to do. I am a doctor with an undergraduate degree in econ. I would love to buy you a cup of coffee and talk about the unique features of american medicine as it relates to business and financial incentives. But first, your question:
Doctors do not get to set the rates they charge. Most private insurance rates are based on Medicare “allowable” rates, or what the government pays for medicare. THen the individual doctors fight with the insurance companies to figure out what percent of medicare they will pay. If you are a solo practioner in an area saturated with your specialty the insurance company might tell you to take or leave 80% (that is what is done in my area with internal medicine). If you are in a desired specialty or have a large group with some leverage, often you can negotiate to 105-110% or medicare. It can get quite specific to with the pay scale being 2004 medicare or 2005 medicare.
So if your medical malpractice insurance rates go up and you are a hand surgeon in mississippi, you can just re-negotiate your contracts. If you are a primary care doctor in the philadelphia area, you will absorb every penny of any increased med malpractice.
b
Michael Rack, MD
To Anon 7:39,
the ability of an individual practitioner to negotiate rates with an insurance company is very limited.
Anonymous
“the ability of an individual practitioner to negotiate rates with an insurance company is very limited.”
Yes, but traditional economics would predict that over time the system would adjust. Any strain placed on the system will be mitigated in some way or another. If doctors are truly being run out of business in certain areas of the country, insurance companies will no longer be able to provide adequate service to their customers and they will have to entice physicians to serve their patient base.
If there are some physicians out there who are willing to forgoe traditional reimbursement and absorb the cost (to the point where demand is satisfied) then this implies that physician’s services were overvalued to begin with. This is merely competition at work in a free market economy.
Think about it this way – if Aetna decides it will reimburse doctors 5% of medicare, no physician in his right mind would take their patients. Aetna would quickly be run be run out of business by other insurance companies with better service. The only entity in the health care supply chain that has market power is physicians. Their supply cannot be easily be increased or decreased, and as a whole they cannot be run out of business. Physicians must always be satisfied – maybe not every one of them, but at least enough of them to satisfy demand (I admit that IMG’s do pose a threat). But this is why as an economist I believe that the system will adjust in favor of doctors over time. You cannot continually anger the only group with market power and expect the system to function properly. If this continues 10, 15 years down the road then what college student in their right mind would choose to go into medicine?
Anonymous
“This is merely competition at work in a free market economy.”
Sir, I think thew point you are missing is medicine is NOT free market. In fact with roughly 1/2 of all dollars coming from government entities and their dictating prices (via medicare, medicaid, VA, etc) the fact is medicine is already quasi-socalized already.
Anonymous
“..medicine is NOT free market. In fact with roughly 1/2 of all dollars coming from government entities and their dictating prices (via medicare, medicaid, VA, etc) the fact is medicine is already quasi-socalized already.”
True, the free market aspect is largely absent in the short term, but when you consider the government as a player in the market the same free market forces are still at work. In the short term, MDs can choose to accept or deny medicare and medicaid in many practice settings. In the long term, doctors in training will begin to avoid certain specialties, certain states, and will practice in more affluent areas. Whereas a company like Ford might decide it is no longer profitable to have factories in Mississippi, this is not an option even for a provider as powerful as the government. The most dangerous thing I have read about is New Jersey doctors receiving $11,000 per year from the government for malpractice premiums with a committment to stay in the state for 2 years. This does not address the underlying problem and strips these doctors of much of their power.
Anonymous
Dear Economist,
I agree with your logic. However, the equilibrium you speak of does not occur over 1-2 years. It would take decades for medical students to finish school, pay off their debt and retrain for other careers. This is happening as is evidenced by the match rates for US physicians into primary care. Five years ago internal medicine programs were churning out 50% of their grads into gen med. now only 20% do that. (and that is their initial choice, many retrain years later after they are disillusioned).
Like you mentioned, IMGs (god bless them and I mean that sincerely) will provide the unmet needs of primary care. I’m not sure that anyone, be it government, the doctors, or patients, have made a conscious decision that they want it to happen this way.
And remember, if Aetna says they will only pay 5% of medicare in a certain region and no physician takes them up on that, it means they will lose money–but only in that region. If you were an insurance company, perhaps you would stop offerring policies to people in Miami if you couldn’t negotiate a reasonable contract. Or you might set up a clinic staffed with physicians you hire. (ask they patients how much they like receiving their care from a cigna clinic).
To whine without offerring a solution is a waste, so here it is: Primary care should be like a cab. As soon as you walk into a room, the digital clock starts ticking. If the patient just wants you to look at a rash–30 seconds=20 dollars. If the patient is lonely and uses physical complaints to satisfy their need for human contact–45 minutes=150 dollars. Additionally, everyone should be made to give a copay that is a percent of their own personal income. $10 is nothing to the retired CEO I see, but if my poor patients have to pay $10 to see me, they will exsanguinate from their GI bleed before calling.
Lastly, The courts should hire a salaried physician to prep them on the particular points of a med mal case. If he/she needs a consult from neurosurg or endocrine, that can be done over the phone and plaintiff and lawyer split the costs. The only financial incentive the doctor has is to make it to work.
b
Anonymous
I love the coments on free enterprise in medicine. I am now leaving my solo surgical practice for a salaried position, as 10% of the docs in my area have done. The insurance companies dont seem to be very worried about the problem.They tell the patients to drive an extra 40 miles, that isnt a real problem. (signed) Former obstetrician.
Anonymous
The insurance company doesn’t give a crap about people driving an extra 40 miles for their OB care (and neither do the lawyers for that matter).
Anonymous
“The insurance company doesn’t give a crap about people driving an extra 40 miles for their OB care (and neither do the lawyers for that matter).”
Actually, they do when patients start enrolling in other companies’ plans. They may not give a crap about doctors, but they want to keep their patients happy – or at least content to the point they won’t find another provider.
Anonymous
“The insurance company doesn’t give a crap about people driving an extra 40 miles for their OB care (and neither do the lawyers for that matter).”
So does everyone have a right, no matter where they live, to have an OB in their backyard?
Anonymous
“Doctors remain amidst s free market economy, see the free enterprise flourishing but will never get the benefit of it by a Govt. mandated system. Malpractice lawyers reap the goods of a free market but without any of its risks, courtesy the same govt. mandated legislature. “
This statement is amazing. It reflects a lack of understanding of medical economics, law, and the government.
A trifecta!
Anonymous
“Doctors remain amidst s free market economy, see the free enterprise flourishing but will never get the benefit of it by a Govt. mandated system. Malpractice lawyers reap the goods of a free market but without any of its risks, courtesy the same govt. mandated legislature.”
So if you already feel powerless to return to the free market, why not advocate for single payer, have the feds run everything, and get all the benefits in terms of malpractice?
Anonymous
“So if you already feel powerless to return to the free market, why not advocate for single payer, have the feds run everything, and get all the benefits in terms of malpractice?”
Because you greedy sodomites run the government, and you’d never allow a single payer government-run system to get in the way of your rape of the health-care system. I’ll belive i’m wrong the day the ATLA supports a single-payer system.
Anonymous
You really do feel like a helpless little fellow, don’t you?
I feel sorry for you.
Anonymous
“You really do feel like a helpless little fellow, don’t you?
I feel sorry for you. “
Funny, 2 weeks ago I got a letter from a Law Firm. I was like “oh shit”, here it goes, my no-hitter broken up” Shit!
Turned out it was payment from a lawyer for a porno movie I listed and sold to him on EBAY!
Anonymous
“So does everyone have a right, no matter where they live, to have an OB in their backyard?”
There is a diference between an OB on every corner and one within “emergency” distance. Trying to explain the difference to you is like trying to tell a dog it’s a beagle….moron.
Anirban
“So if you already feel powerless to return to the free market, why not advocate for single payer, have the feds run everything, and get all the benefits in terms of malpractice?”
Nice choice of words . nobody should feel powerless to perform in a free market economy , given a chance . That someone is not allowed to play in a free market ,is not a logic for eating the humble pie of state-sponsored medicine , that will be at best state –poisoned. The missing link in the equation here is the inability of a physician to pass the cost to the consumer, unlike any business , by a govt. mandated scheme. In a sense we are already halfway to a socialized medicine,and all these Attempts to override free-market forces for so many years have created unintended consequences, despite good intentions.
Medical care, pharmaceuticals, and these days even McDonald’s, have additional costs because of litigation, settlements, and verdicts. Malpractice insurance has come to the forefront because doctors have simply refused to continue to work until there is tort reform. Work slowdowns and stoppages have resulted in West Virginia and Nevada.
Those who block reform cloak themselves in the glory of the jury system, defending it as a component of the free market, despite the fact that the jury system is no substitute for the free market. In auditor malpractice A 20 yr. long research by Kneer DC and Reckers explored whether jurors disregard a judge’s instructions on the law, and found that almost universally they will, because of a sympathy factor or personal experiences.
Asking a half socialized system to go full is like telling a starved undernourished man to better die. It flies in the face of how our economy works. The bottom-line is that Free markets function well. We must allow them to function, without attempts to override them with government, Juries or allocation systems.
Anonymous
“There is a diference between an OB on every corner and one within “emergency” distance. Trying to explain the difference to you is like trying to tell a dog it’s a beagle….moron.”
Do tell – what distance can those of us in the hinterlands expect to have OB service within? Are a number of doctors looking to move to the rural areas of America?
Don’t you hate it when you make a dumbass statement and get called on it?
Anonymous
“That someone is not allowed to play in a free market ,is not a logic for eating the humble pie of state-sponsored medicine , that will be at best state –poisoned.”
Physicians are allowed to play in the free market, they just choose not to. I can’t say I blame them though, because they get compensated handsomely even outside the market.
“Medical care, pharmaceuticals, and these days even McDonald’s, have additional costs because of litigation, settlements, and verdicts.”
When you hurt someone, you pay for the harm you cause. That’s the way of the world when you don’t have an extensive social welfare system. Everyone else would pay for the harm if the tortfeasor didn’t.
“Malpractice insurance has come to the forefront because doctors have simply refused to continue to work until there is tort reform. “
On average, malpractice costs are less than 5% of a physician’s overhead. And tort reform didn’t lower costs, and never has, except where insurers were regulated. States w/ and w/out it see their rates go up when the economy is bad, and states w/ and w/out it see them go down or hold steady when it’s good. That’s a historical fact which simply cannot be denied. Physicians believing otherwise is just evidence of their gullibility.
“despite the fact that the jury system is no substitute for the free market.”
Nor is it meant to be. Apples and oranges.
” In auditor malpractice A 20 yr. long research by Kneer DC and Reckers explored whether jurors disregard a judge’s instructions on the law, and found that almost universally they will, because of a sympathy factor or personal experiences.”
I don’t think you read your link. Seriously, attend just one trial, and get just the most basic clue about what you’re talking about. Right now, you clearly don’t have it. 1/2 of the jurors in this country are people just as opposed to litigation as you – do you really think none of them ever get on a jury? And how is it that jurors manage to put away their sympathy and still find for the physician 75% of the time. That stat alone undercuts you. Think about it.
” The bottom-line is that Free markets function well. We must allow them to function, without attempts to override them with government, Juries or allocation systems.”
History says otherwise. Removing accountability from the market has never worked.
Anonymous
“On average, malpractice costs are less than 5% of a physician’s overhead. And tort reform didn’t lower costs, and never has, except where insurers were regulated.”
Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit. Wrong. Incorrect. Support that statement with fact.
“States w/ and w/out it see their rates go up when the economy is bad, and states w/ and w/out it see them go down or hold steady when it’s good. That’s a historical fact which simply cannot be denied. Physicians believing otherwise is just evidence of their gullibility.”
A myth propagated by the litigation (better known as the “we’re gonna sue your ass for everything its worth!”) industry. Again – WRONG!! As for gullibility, the only way we are is that we continue to work in a risky profession and let ourselves be put at risk of lawsuit abuse.
Anonymous
“Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit. Wrong. Incorrect. Support that statement with fact.”
Feds medicare reports. Specifically, the Official Transcript, Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, Public Meeting, December 12, 2002. Start around page 190.
http://www.medpac.gov/public_meetings/transcripts/12%2002%20combinedtranscripts.pdf
“A myth propagated by the litigation (better known as the “we’re gonna sue your ass for everything its worth!”) industry. Again – WRONG!!”
Sorry, but this one is true as well. Pick any two comparable states in terms of population, one with and without reform, and you’ll see the same fluctuations in insurance. It will be more acute in some states, such as PA, because of mismanaged insurers going under, but those are exceptions. Look at St. Paul – they just didn’t pull out of states w/out tort reform.
Anonymous
“Do tell – what distance can those of us in the hinterlands expect to have OB service within? Are a number of doctors looking to move to the rural areas of America?
No one should have to drive 50-150 miles plus to see their OB in high risk situations. In rural america that is the norm. But since you have seen a few episodes of ER I am sure you know more about the subject than I.
“Physicians are allowed to play in the free market, they just choose not to. I can’t say I blame them though, because they get compensated handsomely even outside the market.”
Do you know ANYTHING about medicine anon? The reimbursement for care/procedures is some multiple of medicare payment rates even with private payers (except for elective procedures). The fact is medicare is the 900 lb gorilla that runs the show. Every year congress has to decide whether to allow the medicare cuts go in effect or not regardless of the cost for doc’s to practice. Some of us have stopped taking medicare patient’s. Other’s don’t have that luxury (especially those who deal with geriatrics). Medicaid is even worse. Do you realize a doc loses money every time he gives an immunization based on payment schedule? Personally I have stopped taking medicaid patient’s because I was losing money by seeing them. It was a gut wrenching decision as these people are in the most need of my care and many providers have already stopped taking medicaid.
PS: The only dumbass is you.
“
Anonymous
“And tort reform didn’t lower costs, and never has”
oops CJD let’s ignore Texas because it doesn’t follow your mantra.
Anonymous
“No one should have to drive 50-150 miles plus to see their OB in high risk situations. In rural america that is the norm.”
So then health care IS an entitlement. Well, that’s good to know. Let’s make it a law that physicians MUST move to certain areas. The good folks of Needles, CA and similarly remote places will be happy to hear it!
” Do you realize a doc loses money every time he gives an immunization based on payment schedule?”
Yup. It makes me wonder why you spend all your time lobbying over tort reform and not spending your money on something that has a direct effect on your bottom line. But hey, I’m sure you’ve already figured that out, since you’re so smart.
Anonymous
“oops CJD let’s ignore Texas because it doesn’t follow your mantra.”
Why would we ignore Texas? It’s just further proof of it. Texas rates go down, and Washington’s go down at the same rate. One has tort reform the other doesn’t.
What’s even better about Texas is that it illustrates the gullibility of physicians. GE Medical Protective told you that it wouldn’t have any effect on claims in that state, and still you bought it. Now, after a 150% increase, they gave you back 15% and you’re estatic. And what do you know, as the economy has improved, rates are remaining the same or declining slightly in EVERY state! Who’d have thunk it?
Well, I guess anyone with even an ounce of knowledge of the history of these “crises” would.
Anonymous
“Yup. It makes me wonder why you spend all your time lobbying over tort reform and not spending your money on something that has a direct effect on your bottom line”
I don’t know a single physician who spends ANY of his time lobbying about Tort Reform. Most Physicians I know work 80 hours a week, and spend their free time recovering from their work weeks. Maybe if we had an effective lobby things would change. Instead we just let the AMA do our bidding for us. And frankly, they suck.
Anonymous
“I don’t know a single physician who spends ANY of his time lobbying about Tort Reform.”
You should get out more:
http://www.osmaonline.org/dynamic_pages/dynamic_pageview.asp?ident=178872705
http://www.wsma.org/tort_update18.pdf#search='Physicians%20and%20state%20capitol%20and%20tort%20reform'
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/02/09/nj.doctors/
http://www.pcms.org/bulletin/2004/marapr/TEXT3.html
http://www.flhosp.org/medliabpublic/rally2.htm
Does anything warm the heart more than seeing physicians and insurers united as one?
Anonymous
Does anything warm the heart more than seeing physicians and insurers united as one?
Yes. Lawyers suing their own clients because they want a bigger cut (or all) of the settlement:
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/14330779.htm
Anonymous
Sorry:
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/14330779.htm
Anonymous
CJD:
Your witty sarcasm aside you prove once again that you have little understanding of medicine and it’s problems. The sad fact is you don’t even realize you are part of the problem
goodbye I am done with you.
Anonymous
In the immortal words of Curly Bill:
“Well, bye.”
Anonymous
Seriously, though, you asked for facts, and I gave you links for every one. You just didn’t like the facts because they didn’t fit what you wanted to believe.
I don’t know much about medicine, but I do have a fair understanding of the law, and how medicine is funded, and how insurance rates are determined and the history of the medical liability insurance industry. But I will never dispute that I know little about the actual practice of medicine.
I tried to be a little humorous in my posts, and for that you’ll have to forgive me.
The fact that you think lawyers are part of the problem illustrates how little you understand about the overall economics of the issue.
Anonymous
What does to handful of links about doctor’s rally’s over several years have anything to do with anything? Shall I link all those “consumer education” websites detailing purported medical mistakes that are in reality funded by law firms? Frankly in my reading of your threads I feel you have little understanding of the complexities of medicine funding issues besides the USATODAY snap shot.
PS: you ARE part of the problem but it is pointless explaining this to you since you have vested interest to leave things the way they are.

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