Comments

Anonymous
Aren’t DOs also Doctors of Medicine? Do they have the same years of training as what MDs have?
I thought they could do everything an MD can do (even surgery) but they just pay more attention to the whole person rather than just treating a hurt arm (for example).
How is being a DO less prestigous than an MD?
Anonymous
The only person here so far who has said DO is less prestigious is you (by the way, I’m an MD!)
Anonymous
Excuse me…How does being a DO have “NOT THE SAME RING” than an MD?
Anonymous
Off Topic, but I just seen that “Geek Nurse” is gone..Very sad!
Anonymous
Does it really matter whether he’s a DO or an MD? What matters most is his heroic acts. People don’t care whoever you are when you save their lives. They see the person in YOU!
The tags after your name is irrelevant if you haven’t done any good to mankind.
Anonymous
I don’t understand a single one of the comments above. The original post was merely pointing out that Newsweek’s cover had an error on it which might have been intentional, right?
At most it was a commentary on the public’s confusion over osteopathic medicine. It is not hard to imagine even some of Newsweek’s readers being confused by “Doctor, D.O.” nor is it difficult to imagine, unfortunatley, a respect given more by some to the MD degree than the DO.
The original post didn’t sound like it was condoning such, just pointing it out. Indeed, I’m sure I’m with many others in not seeing a difference in prestige between the two. That doesn’t mean that misconceptions about osteopathic medicine aren’t still widespread among the public.
But there wasn’t really a hint of disrepect in the original post, which makes the previous comments a little confusing.
Gasman
The myth is perpetuated by anonymous 10:57.
D.O.s are Doctors of osteopathy, which is the only other significant school of western medicine to have survived the efficacy shakeout of the early 20th century. The other group is allopathy, which is more commonly known as the school of practice associated with schools granting the degree Doctor of Medicine also known as Medical Doctor, M.D.
Yes, now the curriculum is virtually identical. This is not surprizing because the organism they treat is the same; there is a natural convergence of the science and practice of medicine dictated by the natural biology involved.
Now the myth busting. D.O. do not as a group do anything more holistically than M.D.s It’s all marketing that they’ve managed to perpatuate. With a little fun with numbers (lies, damn lies, and statistics) they try to support this supposition by observing that a greater percentage of graduates are in primary care. This in itself means nothing. It is also true that physicians born in India are more likely to be in primary and rural practice than U.S. born physicians, but this describes nothing about the holism or their practice.
What the hell is holist medicine anyway. You have to define it first before you can determine whether someone does it more.
Dan R.
DO’s are still required to have coursework in osteopathic manipulation (a “required” elective according to the USMLE), and in a few states have to complete an Osteopathic internship year.
That said, DO’s are MD’s for all practicle purposes. If it weren’t for political issues, the two whould have merged completely years ago.
Anonymous
The D.O. school is an alternative pathway to becoming a physician for those who
were not accepted to M.D. school. In their curriculum, the D.O.’s are also taught spinal manipulation which is not in the M.D. curricullum. M.D.’s are more nerdy than D.O.’s. and for this reason it is more probable that a D.O. will risk his life to save his comrades in the battlefield because an M.D. brain thinks of all the possibilities,risks and benefits in the short term and long term, and will consider that his own survival is more important for the long term survival of the human race because his nerdy DNA has to be passed on to future generations. Warrior DNA’s are easier to propagate than nerdy DNA’s. – Anonymous M.D.
Anonymous
DOs are more suited to family practice because they consider the whole person, rather than just a patient that is in their examination room. MDs are too narrow minded and sometimes focus on just minute areas or one problem at a time.
Anonymous
I don’t think the original post was in any way suggesting D.O.’s are inferior to M.D.’s actually. He was pointing out that Newsweek made an error in assigning credentials. And the reason they may have intentionally done this is because of the lack of public awareness about D.O.’s (mainly realizing that they are in fact physicians and surgeons too). People either don’t know what it is at all, think that they’re optometrists (I’ve heard this one a lot- “isn’t that doctor of optometry?”) or think they’re some kind of mid-level (P.A., N.P.) or ancillary provider (D.C’s, etc).
I don’t fully agree with the idea that oseopathic schools are for people who can’t get into allopathic schools. Yes, the average GPA and MCATS of entering classes are typically lower on the whole but
a.) there are around a dozen or so osteopathic schools (11? 14?17? something like that) and allopathic schools number in the hundreds.
b.) a lot of children of oseopaths intentionally seek out the D.0. degree over the M.D., as do a few others who want the OM training or agree with some aspect of the osteopathic philosophy
c.) perhaps the most well-qualfied, ambitious applicants purposefully only consider allopathic schools because D.O.’s are less well known and therefore are often just perceived to have less prestige
Its a self-perpetuating cycle- until the brightest students go there, it won’t be more well-known or respected, but until it is more well-known and respected, the smartest students probably won’t want to go there.
Anonymous M.D.- given that you do not hold a D.O. degree it is probably safe to assume you have not gone through osteopathic training, so therefore I’m not sure what basis you really have to comment on the content of the curriculum, philosophies of the instructors, etc. D.O.’s do still remain significantly different in some respects- the most major of which have been mentioned (O.M. and osteopathic internships.
- anonymous med student (allopathic)/ daughter of a family practice D.O.
Anonymous
Physcians aren’t the only ones with multiple degrees for essentially the exact same role. Dentitsts have DMD and DDS, veterinarians have DVM and VMD, psychologists have PhD or PsyD… I could go on. I’m sure each has a supposed philosophical difference behind it, but practically speaking they’re the same darn thing.
Anonymous
that should be “dentists”, of course
Anonymous
” given that you do not hold a D.O. degree it is probably safe to assume you have not gone through osteopathic training”
Brilliant deductive reasoning. Your Dad should be very proud.
“so therefore I’m not sure what basis you really have to comment on the content of the curriculum, philosophies of the instructors…”
I did not comment on it except that I mentioned that they are taught spine manipulation which is not really a commentary.
-Anonymous M.D.
Anonymous
You know what, your’re right Anonymous M.D.- that comment should have been directed to Gasman’s post (about not teaching or practicing holistic medicine), not your’s. My apologies.
anonymous med student (allopathic)/ daughter of a family practice D.O.
Anonymous
So Kevin, D.O. doesn’t have the same ring as Kevin, M.D. for a blog? Hmmmn…
Kevin
If I was a D.O., I would have no problem naming the blog Kevin, D.O.
Thanks,
Kevin
Anonymous
“Brilliant deductive reasoning. Your Dad should be very proud.”
Glad to see mysogyny is alive and well for some people. For your information, my mother is a D.O. There was no reason for you to assume otherwise. My deadbeat dad is an auto mechanic somewhere.
Anonymous
Anon 250, your dad will still be proud of you. I’m sure your Mom is proud of you too.
-Anonymous M.D.
Anonymous
Anon 10:40 wrote: “DOs are more suited to family practice because they consider the whole person, rather than just a patient that is in their examination room. MDs are too narrow minded and sometimes focus on just minute areas or one problem at a time.”
I’ve had both a D.O. and a M.D. as my primary care doctors, both in different family practice groups. I didn’t see any differences – it was the same 10 min visits, quick exams, too quick to order tests, etc. If anything, the M.D. took more time to listen to me.
I wouldn’t make any generalizations one way or another.
Anonymous
But on the battlefield, I’ll have a D.O. anytime. He/she may not be able to save your life in the hospital, but he/she will risk his/her life for you.
Anonymous
I guess an example of the ignorant attitude which I *think* was the point of Kevin’s post can be found on the very Gawker site from which the link originated…
The very first commenter to the story said “great, so we send these kids into battle to get blown up by roadside bombs with crappy body armour and we can’t even give them real doctors”.
Unfortunately, it seems some of the same ridiculous claims are coming from some insecure MDs themselves. Where in the world does this idea that a DO wouldn’t be able to save your life in a hospital come from? I bet half the people around who think like this have actually been treated by DO’s in their life (in the ER, as a radiologist, whatever) and haven’t even realized it.
Bottom line: MDs and DOs take the same pre-med requisites, the same MCAT, four years of med school and enter the same residency programs. I don’t think MDs are superior, and I also don’t think that in practice DOs are any more “holistic” in their care.
ITA with whoever said the two would’ve merged years ago if not for politics.
Anonymous
My mom had a Dr. for years that she worshipped. There could be none as good as him. My mother had always thought osteopathic Drs. were almost the same as chiropractors.
One day I went to the Doc. with her and noticed the initials “DO” on the sign. She must not have ever paid any attention. When I told her she had been going to an osteopathic Dr. for years she couldn’t believe it. She then knew that there was really no difference in the way they treat patients from an MD. They are both medical Drs…
People show their ignorance when they think there is some big difference or that MDs are superior.
Anonymous
Okay, I’m a Harvard-trained MD, and let’s get the facts straight and end this debate:
1) DO’s are no more hollistic than MD’s. What does hollistic even mean?
2) “DO’s consider the entire person.” That’s bullshit. Yeah, if someone comes in with an acute problem, you focus on the acute problem. But MD’s don’t consider the whole person when they do system wide PE’s, CBC, CHEM-7, lipid panel, etc? Both types of docs consider the whole person.
3) Osteopathic schools have basically taken on an allopathic curiculum + their body manipulation stuff. They adopted an allopathic curiculum after the Flexner Report because they knew they wouldn’t survive if they didn’t (ie, homeopathy).
4) The body manipulation stuff they teach is complete bullshit and has been proven to be worthless. Check the literature. Most practicing DO’s never use it because it takes too much time or they know it’s bullshit.
5) The vast majority, not all, but most go to osteopathic schools because they couldn’t make allopathic programs. Sad but true, I remember hearing the old question, “DO school or MD carribean?” Sure, some people really want to be DO’s, the rest couldn’t make MD schools (which doesn’t necessarily make them bad doctors).
6) DO’s don’t get the respect MD’s get, right or wrong. That’s just the way it is. Sure, some people respect them both, or even DO>MD, but overall they just aren’t seen the same.
7) While almost any lay person know’s what an MD is, considerably less know what a DO is. And yes, there is a good chance that there trusted physician is a DO w/o them knowing it.
END OF THREAD
Anonymous
How do you know the manipulation stuff they do is just BS? You are an MD so where is your experience to make such a claim about a practice you don’t participate in?
Anonymous
I’m a Harvard trained MD (real one)
I have worked with many DOs and some of them are even my supervisor attendings. They’re anything but inferior, if anything, superior. I’m embarrassed to see a fellow Harvard grad to be so ignorant, which makes me wonder if he/she even graduated from high school.
Anonymous
No need to bash DO’s. You think just because a doc has an MD automatically makes him superior? Do you realize there are plenty of allopathic schools that have lower stats than osteopathic schools? I’m thinking you, Harvard med school graduate, probably think all the physicians are inferior since you graduated from such a SUPERIOR school. Actually, you probably think the nurses and PAs and all the other health professionals are all inferior to you. I’d really hate to be working with you.
Anonymous
I am a state-school trained MD; I once regretted that I didn’t train at the Brigham but after I read the previous posts I now realize that you guys are as dumb as me!
Gasman
All the schoolyard name calling and bickering aside.
It is still interesting that the newsmagazine (presumably) deliberately chose to change the credentials of the doctor. If asked, this doc certainly made clear his credentials. If the newsmagazine failed to fact check their headline then it reeks of sloppy jounalism. Either way, the journalist screwed up.
Even though colleagues in my group carry identical clinical credentials and previleges, we cannot freely interchange the letters (MD or DO) on any identification we use during the practice of medicine as a matter of state law.
Anonymous
This is Harvard MD, 7:46…
So you guys didn’t actually read what I wrote. I did not make any judgements about the capabilities of osteopathic physicians, just that they are not given the same respect as an MD and many lay people don’t know what a DO is. I’m not using words like all or none, but for the most part what I’ve said is true. Notice I also used words like “right or wrong.”
As for body manipulation stuff… a recent study in the British Medical Journal showed it to be ineffective. And yeah, that is also my opinion, feel free to have yours. But look, I am saying that osteopaths are real physicians. Don’t be so suspicious and guarded… and BTW.. I went to state college, so I’m not some stuck up ivy brat, and I do have DO’s as friends. But the truth is the truth, they’re not as respected (on average).
Okay?
Anonymous
I am state med school grad; you are right. The bottom line is nobody would go to DO school if they could get into an allopathic school. The schools cost the same (cheaper if you go to a state med school!); I don’t buy that anyone would choose DO over MD; there may be 1 or 2 fools, but the rest are allopathic rejects.
BTW, I also would never pay $40K a year to go to Harvard med over $4k to go to UCLA med or $10K a year to go to FU State med; I hope you did your residency at Harvard and didn’t go to school there otherwise you’re as big a fool as these DO fools….
Anonymous
You are the fool. Get a life.
Anonymous
Harvard-MD again (yawn)…
Stop bad mouthing osteopaths… they do help alot of people, which is the reason to become a doctor. I would say that the majority, not all, goto DO schools because they could not gain acceptance to an allopathic program. Some want to become a DO for their own reasons, which may be valid in their eyes.
It’s amazing to see how sensitive doctors, MD’s and DO’s alike, are regarding this subject. MD’s need to admit that DO’s can be fine physicians, DO’s should honestly accept that as of 2006 they do not command the same level of respect (salary yes!).
There is an interesting article from the 1999 NEJM entited paradoxes and osteopathy or something or other discussing the subject. DO’s are basically allopaths who learn body manipulation techniques, which in that same issue were shown to be dubious in a randomized study.
And 9:06… I won’t even get into which allopathic school is best. Get a life….
Signing out…
Anonymous
Hey Anonymous : 7:46 PM
Now you make me wonder about MD’s with all of your bad mouthing!
Anonymous
“Harvard-trained MD” you are really sounding like an arrogant quack. I find it highly suspect that you are really a Harvard grad anyway, or even a physician at all, given that you can’t even spell the word “holistic”.
As for OMT, (or “body manipulation stuff” in your sophisticated lingo), you’re an idiot if you think one journal report proves your case. Much like chiropractic, the debate about efficacy has raged on, back and forth, for awhile. Obviously you are welcome to your opinion (which isn’t even worth much considering you aren’t OMT trained and have never practiced it) but do not present it as fact. Just a cursory scan of Google results shows articles in the November 1999 New England Journal of Medicine and 2003 Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine finding OMT helping everything from back and cervical pain to reducing the need for abx in recurrent pediatric OM.
Other than the rare pompous ass like yourself, I’ve never met a physcian who doesn’t accord equal respect for their osteopath colleagues. Perhaps it is only you seeing it this way.
Anonymous
harvahd md is only good if you are going into research or academics; if you are going to be a doc-in-a-box or er doc you might as well go to state or you’re wasting your time and MONEY!
Seacrest…out!
EKC
I agree. Patients and the general public may not respect them as much (largely because they don’t know much about them or don’t know what they are at all) but within the physician community I think MDs who have less respect for DOs are the extreme minority.
Anonymous
Uh, DOs don’t practice manipulation as much because insurance barely reimburses for it. With a lot of plans you can’t bill for an OV and OMT on the same day at all.
Anonymous
Woah… 9:59… are you actually reading what I’m saying:
Let’s recap:
1) I do respect DO’s as much as MD’s.
2) On average, lay people are not as aware of them, and they don’t command the same respect on average.
3) I don’t believe in OMT, what’s wrong with that? If this were a onc forum and we were debating chemo then I wouldn’t be a pompous ass, as you put it.
As for going to Harvard, well it takes the same 4-years as other programs, and my family is independently wealthy so cost was no a factor. So given the choice, why not? And yes, state schools are very good. Any american school is very good.
Anonymous
You sound like every HMS I ever met. This definitely isn’t jealousy, but you guys are a special bunch. Intelligence and worldliness, but no medical common sense.
Samson Isberg
I believe Sam Sheppard was an osteopath (you remember him? The real life model for dr Richard Kimble of “the Fugitive”
phil
I have a couple of thoughts.
1)I am a senior, going to an American medical school this Fall. Everyone I know applying (I go to a large public university) to medical school considers allopathic schools a first choice, and osteopathic schools backup. Many didn’t even apply to any osteopathic schools. It seems most people in the profession agree that DOs get just as much respect from their colleagues. The question is, how much do they get from the general public? I agree that DOs get less.
2) This one has been brewing for a while…
Reading what some of the doctors on this forum have to say depresses me, and not just on this thread either. I’m not talking about your medical opinions, I’m talking about the incessant name-calling and arrogance toward patients, lawyers, and other doctors. Who are you going to convince while you’re insulting them? I suppose the same goes for everyone else too. Please just give it a rest.
Anonymous
Nothing at all wrong with you not believing in OMT. If you will bother to read what I said, you’d see that. The problem is that in your initial post, you identified yourself as some kind of ultimate authority (“let’s get the facts straight and settle this”) and then proceeded to offer your opinion about OMT as some kind of established fact. And when called on it, you cited a single article in a medical journal as your “evidence” which is pretty weak. You are not an expert or authority on a practe in which you have not been trained and do not perform, and you can’t cite any conclusive body of research evidence, so yes your original comments were out of line. You could have very easily said “I don’t believe in it,” but instead you called it “crap” like that was what everyone should think.
Anonymous
If you’re independently wealthy, why are you doing this? Why don’t you go and chill on a permanent vacation?
Anonymous
phil,
you are young and naive. i was in your shoes once – with that carefree attitude. i bet you are entering medicine to save a few lives right??? but once you leave residency, you will realize how lawyers will be your enemies. you will dread the day when the first law suit comes to you in the certified letter. you will see how patients are so demanding, and despite your trying the best, they will still sue you. you will need a lot of growing up to do.
Anonymous
” but once you leave residency, you will realize how lawyers will be your enemies.”
Leave residency? I was named/served during my internship. I do agree. Phil you don’t know how the system is yet (you will if you get in to med school). Once you walk a mile in our shoes You will have a much different opinion.
Good Luck
Anonymous
One reason that a lot of patients don’t know that they are being treated by a D.O. is that some of
these D.O.’s try to hide these letters. Their white coats or their prescription pads will state “Dr. So and So” and omit the D.O..
Anonymous
Quackwatch on DO’s:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html
phil
I figured you guys would say that. And you’re right. I am naive. I have only the slightest idea about the crap that many of you have to go through. Life is unfair, and everyone has something to complain about. Somehow, I just don’t see doctors having it much worse than anyone else. Even if they do, that doesn’t change my point that anonymous name-calling and arrogance in a forum is pointless and irritating to those trying to get information. I’m all for statistics, argument, and interesting stories, but come on. Calling someone an idiot or fool doesn’t lend you a whole lot of credibility.
Anyhow, carry on w/ the interesting thread. Didn’t mean to send it off-track into another malpractice argument. A few months ago I was trying to prepare for an interview at a school where they had asked a few candidates “Why not DO?” Reading this would’ve helped.
Anonymous
So now we’re going to imply that DOs are sub-physician quacks. Whatever.
BTW, the quackwatch website (run by a lone MD, who I guess must think he is the be all and end all authority on osteopathic practice) is chock-full of letters from attorneys and “legal consultants” with “interests” in med-mal, praising this dude for providing so much valuable material for free. One LNC claims she used to spend hundreds of dollars on medico-legal journals and is just so tickled she can access this site for free. Wonderful…
Anyone who takes such extreme hard-line stances against any non-allopathic care (osteopaths, chiropractic, accupuncture, psycology, nutritionists, etc.) is suspect. I’ll be the first to admit that these areas have far more “quack” than traditional medicine, but would never be so arrogant as to assume that it is ALL 100% worthless.
As for not putting the credential DO- its funny, because I was thinking just the other day how many podiatrists (DPMs) seem to do just that too. Maybe they do it because they know the public probably doesn’t recognize them as doctors by just their initials alone. Healthcare is over-initialed anyway.
Way off topic, but have you noticed lately how every little counselor, hospital and lab employee or nurse has like eight letters after their names now? I guess everyone, down to the the eight-week Dawn Training Center grad who draws your blood at the blood bank, has got to have some fancy initals behind their name. Its PC I guess.
Anonymous
if all DOs or say even majority of DOs are incompetent, getting their liscenses taken away left and right, then sure, call them quack, call them voodoo, etc
so i really dont get this hype, at least among a few here, this MD > DO mentality. so what if the MCAT or gpa were less… but you cant argue the fact that DOs are in every specialty and saving lives.. give it a rest, and get along. those who put other professions down only reveal their own insecurities
Anonymous
The vast majority of DOs dont use their OMT training at all and are essentially indistinguishable from MDs.
The fact that tons of DOs enter MD residencies every year, whereas MDs dont go into DO residencies, speaks volumes.
MDs have the winning formula. DOs have copied enough of it to be interchangeable.
Anonymous
here’s the thing, though. DO’s can go into MD residencies, but not the other way around. so… it really can’t speak volumes of anything.
Anonymous
Let’s hope that your medical skills are as big as your egos! However, I am sure if they were as impresive there would be no reason for malpractice for MD or DO.
Anonymous
“impressive” before I get corrected.
Anonymous
I am an undergraduate student and plan on applying to medical school. I will admit that many students would rather go to an MD school rather than a DO. I researched DO schools because my GPA is not stellar, 3.2. That said I can smell the egotists out there going ah ha… he sucks. Well my GPA is in physics, not biology, not much of a comparison, ill trade quantum mechanics for biochemistry any day. Quite frankly im sick of many premidical student attitudes, hoarding chemicals in lab, cheating, kissing ass, drama, and just memorizing everything instead of taking the time to really understand anything. These are all too often the “well qualified” applicants, (not always). So for me I am forced to consider DO because most allopathic schools I have spoken with just look at numbers not your major, coursework,how many hours a week you had to work etc.. So even if the numbers are higher for allopathic I cant believe one is so much better because of statistics… grade inflation is rampant and the smartest people dont always get the best grades.
Phew sorry all that was kinda long.
Anonymous
Oh my – why don’t you all just let go of your egos? I’m an MD/PhD student, and honestly, you don’t have to be that brainy to practice medicine. Memorize a bunch of stuff, try it out, repeat until you have it. Having used MDs and DOs for primary care though, the DOs seem to have less in depth knowledge of the basic science behind medicine, though they can do general practice just fine. In fact, I had a DO tell me something that was completely wrong about the pharmacology of the medication I’m taking. But they can prescribe the medication just like anyone else. what’s the difference in general practice?
BJM of Columbus, Ohio
From a patient’s perspective:
I’ve been treated by both types of doc for a rotator cuff problem.
The MD prescribed the standard anti-inflammatory Rx and joint strengthening exercise.
The DO had me lying on my back, positioned a particular way, and pushing down with the affected arm.
What worked? Well, it seems I’d trapped a nerve in some stretching maneuvers. Exercising it more was painful. NSAIDs didn’t untrap the nerve and every time I reached it’d hang with a stabbing pain. The DO got it untrapped; bingo, no catch, no need for pain meds, no problems doing the strengthening exercises (which are a good idea, just didn’t solve the actual problem).
It is possible another MD might’ve been able to do the same thing, or a physical therapist, or whatever. I don’t know; those of you who are MDs, please respond!
Anonymous
The worst part about bein a DO has got to be people thinkin your a chiropractor.
Anonymous
I personally know several dozen DO docs and frankly have not been impressed with any of them. All of them seem to have a chip on their shoulders which is always a pain in the ass. I don’t really care where you came from if you can show me through your work ethic, conscientiousness, smarts, and common sense how good a doc you are. In my career, I’ve crossed paths with many irresponsible and lousy MDs also, but I’ve also met several stellar ones. I’ve not yet met a DO I would categorize in the “stellar” group. This thread reacquainted me with the reason for this: there isn’t a premed student alive who would prefer to go a DO school any more than they would want to go to med school overseas. The “bottom of the barrel” in terms of GPA, MCATs, and the rest of your school record in general are the ones who must resort to applying to the DO schools. The obvious result? Inferior docs coming out of the DO ranks. Inferior meaning lower intellectual capability/capacity, and/or lower ambition/motivation/drive. These traits would present you with one who will tend to be less conscientious, have an inferior work ethic, have inferior smarts and common sense.
Anonymous
I’m a DO and when I took my specialty boards scored in the 99% so I guess I beat the harvard residents!
I don’t practice OMT but when I had a running injury that wouldn’t heal I went to a DO who fixed it. I also had chronic headaches for years that I had been ignoring and had those treated too. In the right hands it is an amazing therapy. You may believe it is hocus pocus but it isn’t. It’s an amazing theraputic modality. Just because most DO’s tend to practice the same way as an allopathic physician (myself included) doesn’t mean that the osteopathic manipulation isn’t valid.
Some people are ‘late bloomers’ Some people need to be at a school geographically close to home. There are many reasons for choosing a certain school. All I can tell you is I was well respected in my program and unless I wore a flying banner on top of my head no one would have a clue I was a DO and not an MD. My brother who is an MD hematologist/oncologist and has been practicing 20 years is waiting for a DO to graduate the heme/onc program because he’s the best they’ve seen coming out of the fellowship in years and they want him to join the practice. This is a fancy NYC practice. Things have changed I think from the ‘old days’ of prejudice.
Anonymous
In response to Anon 9:21, I respect your opinion but feel as though it is a bit uninformed. Please allow me to explain…
I’ve just completed a masters degree in biomedical sciences because coming out of my undergraduate program, I was unsure as to whether I wanted to pursue a PhD, PharmD, or medical degree. My masters work allowed me to explore basic science research as well as clinical research, and after working in both settings, I’ve decided to apply to medical school.
My bottom line? I am “premed” and visiting DO and MD schools alike to find out what each has to offer. I have a few friends who are only applying to DO schools, but not because they have poor records; they just agree more with the osteopathic philosophy. I am also finding that DO schools have many students that were accepted to a number of allopathic programs and still chose the osteopathic option. Many people I’ve spoken with, both patients and physicians, believe in OMT as a capable supplement to allopathic techniques for an array of symptoms.
Although some studies may fail to show significant treatment effects for OMT groups, one must consider that there are a multitude of symptoms treated by OMT and one study cannot evaluate them all (if a study fails to exhibit a significant effect for one symptom, it does not mean that another study on a different treatment/symptom, or even for the same treatment/symptom but using a different study design, would necessarily fail to show significance)…we don’t really know yet whether or not OMT “works” (scientifically speaking).
Also, I have not found some sort of a hole in the osteopathic curriculums, when compared to allopathic curriculums, where OMT replaces something that MD students learn; rather, it seems to me as though DO students learn OMT in addition to everything included in the allopathic courses.
As far as the “bottom of the barrel” idea, just because the mean MCAT or GPA for some DO schools is lower does not necessarily mean that the MCAT/GPA ranges for DO programs do not have equally high maximum extremes as their MD counterparts; such statistics could also mean that along with the equally high scores, there are lower minimum scores accepted, which bring down the mean. Those students with the lower raw scores must, however, have strengths that override the low scores (e.g. experience, interview skills) to get them accepted. After all, students are not, by any means, admitted merely based on those numbers. So, I would not consider that the bottom of the barrel. Moreover, of two physicians with the same boards scores, I would choose the one with a better “bedside manner” despite a poorer MCAT/undergrad GPA, without hesitation.
I am still in the process of deciding which philosophy works best for me, but I think that whichever path I choose, both have the potential to train “stellar” physicians. What I know is that either way, I will not decide based on stereotypes or uninformed public opinion.
Thanks for “listening”!
Anonymous
Wow, I’m surprised that in a world where there is so much going on, MDs and DOs battle over who’s the better doc. The truth is, if you put your mind and heart into whatever you do you can be fantastic, innovative…even “stellar”. Quite in the same way if you are solely taking on a profession to show off your income and subsequent luxuries….you may not have the same passion and be as “stellar”. Regardless, DO or MD, you have made a commitment to do no harm. A promise to be a lifelong healer, teacher, learner, and leader. That’s a position that should not be taken lightly. To get back to the stats,that someone–a very arrogant and ignorant “someone”, mentioned earlier…
Stats don’t equal educational QUALITY! Especially given the standards, quotas, and many other subjective factors involved. It’s insane to think that DO students are uneducated or remedial and MD students are not. It’s simply absurd. Being an MD I’m astonished and embarrassed that I share letters with folks that have the audacity to think this way about other people but call themselves healers…and vow to do now harm. Wow…
Anonymous
no*
Anonymous
I am a medical malpractice defense attorney. We represent hundreds of M.D’s and hundrends of D.O.’s. And in about 75% of our cases we are dealing with D.O.’s who are alleged to have committed malpractice. Of that 75% I would say that probably 45% of the D.O.’s actually did committ medical malpractice. Of the 25% of M.D’s i would say that about less than 10% actually comitted malpractice. Now these figures are not this way because we represent more D.O’s than M.D.’s, no, these figures are this way because the D.O.’s are inferior to the M.D.’s. When my loved ones go to the doctor, a hospital, or emergency room i make them ask the doctor treating them whether they are a D.O. or a M.D., and if they say D.O. i tell my loved ones to leave immediatly because they can much better treatment from a vet than they can from a D.O.
Anonymous
Anon 4:33…
I mean seriously…the vet comment. You are so making that whole “medical malpractice” attorney stuff up…
…hahahahaha….a vet, thats a good one…
Maybe I should tell my buddy who is a Ph.D. in molecular biology that joke as he studies for his D.O. boards.
Anonymous
this was all very interesting, but what does PC mean after a doctor’s name.
Anonymous
I know someone who has a 2.9 GPA and a 23 MCAT who got accepted to Yale Med. Of Course the only reason she got in was becuase she was a minority, but if they let someone in with those stats, it proves that you dont have to be Einstein to succeed in MD programs they just need a way of weeding through the thousands of applicants.
Anonymous
DO’s are joke degrees. If you can’t get into an MD program, try for a DO program. You’ll do just fine. If you are looking at residency programs, and there are many DOs in the previous class, that means its a weak residency. They are glorified chiropractors and it’s clear that they have chips on their shoulders about their inferior degrees. Look at the top 50 hospitals in the US, and I assure you there will be no more than 5% attending physicians who are DOs. It is nothing, read nothing like an MD.
Anonymous
[They are glorified chiropractors and it's clear that they have chips on their shoulders about their inferior degrees. Look at the top 50 hospitals in the US, and I assure you there will be no more than 5% attending physicians who are DOs. It is nothing, read nothing like an MD.]
Uno momento idioto,
If DOs are 5% at a top institution that’s great, since DOs make up about 8% of the physician population right now.
Si senor, YOU ARE A IDIOT
Anonymous
YAWN!!! Those of us in medicine really tire of this whole DO vs MD discussion. I am a DO and chose it because I wanted to attend a specific school (with exceptionally high board scores on BOTH USMLE and COMLEX) and because it was a family institution. This discussion is a thing of the past. It seems only the truly ignorant persist in discussing it.
At the end of the day, I only refer to doctors that I like, know, and trust. I can safely say that it has nothing to do with where they went to school, whether they are a DO or MD, what their grades or MCAT or board scores were, etc. These factors have little to do with being a truly exceptional doctor.
Anonymous
Judging by the number of comments on this thread, this topic is apparently the most important issue in health care. Seriously, is this the biggest thing we have to argue about?
Anonymous
I am a future med student-researching DO/MD right now- and I would like to become a DO instead of an MD but I fear that I will not receive the respect I deserve from MD’s and I do not know if it is more difficult to receive a good internship if one is a DO. (My GPA is good and I am sure I will do well on the MCAT) Also, does anyone have any comments on if DO’s are less respected in Western US than Eastern?
Anonymous
I am an undergrad applying to schools right now, both MD and DO. I would rather get into a DO school. If all the science curriculum is the same, but DOs get 400-500 more hours of training in musculoskeletal system function and treatment options, well … that’s something I don’t want to be left out of my training. But do I think this choice alone is going to make me a more caring practitioner than my friends who get MDs? Nope. I would hope the heuristic used to define an educated, dedicated, caring practitioner would be more complex than two letters that follow a name.
P.S. If someone has something nasty to say in response to my comment, please use witty and interesting threats and namecalling, not the run-of-the-mill ones we’ve had so far!
Anonymous
It doesn’t matter what degree you have. We are all in it to help save lives and make progress in healthcare. There should be no reason for any discrimination because the letters behind your name simply do not measure an individuals intellectual capabilities or ability to perform in a certain situation. We really need to address real problems facing healthcare today and stop all of this MD/DO debate because it just doesn’t matter period.
Anonymous
Dear Kevin, M.D.,
Don’t you think it would be better for DOs for general public,media, and international recognition that D.O.s change their initials to MD,DO or MD,O or MD/DO? MD,DOs could work along MDs and there would certainly be a lot less prejudice and no one then would question a MD,DO’s credentials then, you agree?
Wouldn’t it be better if the AOA joined forces and be under the AMA to make this nation strong for all physicians?
Thanks for any info on this matter, Kev.
Anonymous
Aren’t DOs like chiropractors? Is there much of a difference between a chiropractor and DO? Do DOs just learn further techniques of manipulation than chiropractors?
My friend told me DOs are similar to MDs and I couldn’t stop laughing! My friend is such a dummy!
Anonymous
anonymous,
You are wrong! DOs are like MDs that they can prescribe any medication, work independently, and specialize in any field they chose, so they are not chiropractors, that’s for sure. Chiropractors can’t prescribe medicine, surgery like MDs/DOs, but only manipulation.
However, most DOs want to be MDs and applied to regular medical schools, but didn’t get in, so they went to a DO (osteopathic) school instead as a backup, as opposed to applying to MD schools again or going to a Carribean or European MD program.
So, basically, deep inside, the truth is most DOs want to be MDs and would rather have MD behind their name, but the fact is, the just couldn’t get into a U.S. regular medical school to become a Doctor of Medicine, instead they became a Doctor of Osteopathy.
So, anyway, DOs and MDs are equal in regard to state laws and essentially the same, but most DOs and everyone knows that DOs envy MDs and wish they could have MD behind their name instead of DO. MD is what everyone in the world knows as medical doctor and DOs are humble to practice medicine, but wish they were MD!
Anonymous
Harvard MD may believe that OMM is poppycock, but his own medical school would disagree. For DOs looking for validation, you need not look any further than the number one medical school in the country offering what you learn every day:
http://cme.med.harvard.edu/cmeups/pdf/00271286.pdf
We must all work together. MDs must stop feeling superior and DOs must stop feeling inferior. There is no difference in patient outcomes, malpractice lawsuits, or any other factors among the two types of physicians.
I agree with the sentiment of many others here that there are far more important issues we need to be united on in healthcare.
Anonymous
With the advent of Doctorate of Nursing Practice (DNP) and of Doctor of Science Physician Assistant (DScPA), shouldn’t MDs and DOs be united to stay in charge of these doctorate mid-levels.
To help do this, DOs should change their title to MD,DO or MD,O and that will help the general public and all patients realize physicians from non-physicians.
Anonymous
Hello,
For more respect from their patients to recognize that they are real doctors, are some osteopaths now applying for the http://www.DOTOMD.com program? If so, could the doctor then display : MD,DO initials?
Thanks for any information.
Anonymous
My wife is an M.D…and for over 30 years of interaction with hospitals and clinics etc…it seems that D.O.s gravitate more to the admin side…id say..in my personal meets…60-70 percent of those who are doctors,many of course arent…but those that are tend more often to be D.O than M.D…for whatever its worth or matters.

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