He’s actually a D.O. – Doctor of Osteopathy. I think this “error” was done on purpose, since Hero, D.O. doesn’t have the same ring for a Newsweek cover story. (via KidneyNotes)
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if all DOs or say even majority of DOs are incompetent, getting their liscenses taken away left and right, then sure, call them quack, call them voodoo, etc
so i really dont get this hype, at least among a few here, this MD > DO mentality. so what if the MCAT or gpa were less… but you cant argue the fact that DOs are in every specialty and saving lives.. give it a rest, and get along. those who put other professions down only reveal their own insecurities
The vast majority of DOs dont use their OMT training at all and are essentially indistinguishable from MDs.
The fact that tons of DOs enter MD residencies every year, whereas MDs dont go into DO residencies, speaks volumes.
MDs have the winning formula. DOs have copied enough of it to be interchangeable.
here’s the thing, though. DO’s can go into MD residencies, but not the other way around. so… it really can’t speak volumes of anything.
Let’s hope that your medical skills are as big as your egos! However, I am sure if they were as impresive there would be no reason for malpractice for MD or DO.
“impressive” before I get corrected.
I am an undergraduate student and plan on applying to medical school. I will admit that many students would rather go to an MD school rather than a DO. I researched DO schools because my GPA is not stellar, 3.2. That said I can smell the egotists out there going ah ha… he sucks. Well my GPA is in physics, not biology, not much of a comparison, ill trade quantum mechanics for biochemistry any day. Quite frankly im sick of many premidical student attitudes, hoarding chemicals in lab, cheating, kissing ass, drama, and just memorizing everything instead of taking the time to really understand anything. These are all too often the “well qualified” applicants, (not always). So for me I am forced to consider DO because most allopathic schools I have spoken with just look at numbers not your major, coursework,how many hours a week you had to work etc.. So even if the numbers are higher for allopathic I cant believe one is so much better because of statistics… grade inflation is rampant and the smartest people dont always get the best grades.
Phew sorry all that was kinda long.
Oh my – why don’t you all just let go of your egos? I’m an MD/PhD student, and honestly, you don’t have to be that brainy to practice medicine. Memorize a bunch of stuff, try it out, repeat until you have it. Having used MDs and DOs for primary care though, the DOs seem to have less in depth knowledge of the basic science behind medicine, though they can do general practice just fine. In fact, I had a DO tell me something that was completely wrong about the pharmacology of the medication I’m taking. But they can prescribe the medication just like anyone else. what’s the difference in general practice?
From a patient’s perspective:
I’ve been treated by both types of doc for a rotator cuff problem.
The MD prescribed the standard anti-inflammatory Rx and joint strengthening exercise.
The DO had me lying on my back, positioned a particular way, and pushing down with the affected arm.
What worked? Well, it seems I’d trapped a nerve in some stretching maneuvers. Exercising it more was painful. NSAIDs didn’t untrap the nerve and every time I reached it’d hang with a stabbing pain. The DO got it untrapped; bingo, no catch, no need for pain meds, no problems doing the strengthening exercises (which are a good idea, just didn’t solve the actual problem).
It is possible another MD might’ve been able to do the same thing, or a physical therapist, or whatever. I don’t know; those of you who are MDs, please respond!
The worst part about bein a DO has got to be people thinkin your a chiropractor.
I personally know several dozen DO docs and frankly have not been impressed with any of them. All of them seem to have a chip on their shoulders which is always a pain in the ass. I don’t really care where you came from if you can show me through your work ethic, conscientiousness, smarts, and common sense how good a doc you are. In my career, I’ve crossed paths with many irresponsible and lousy MDs also, but I’ve also met several stellar ones. I’ve not yet met a DO I would categorize in the “stellar” group. This thread reacquainted me with the reason for this: there isn’t a premed student alive who would prefer to go a DO school any more than they would want to go to med school overseas. The “bottom of the barrel” in terms of GPA, MCATs, and the rest of your school record in general are the ones who must resort to applying to the DO schools. The obvious result? Inferior docs coming out of the DO ranks. Inferior meaning lower intellectual capability/capacity, and/or lower ambition/motivation/drive. These traits would present you with one who will tend to be less conscientious, have an inferior work ethic, have inferior smarts and common sense.
I’m a DO and when I took my specialty boards scored in the 99% so I guess I beat the harvard residents!
I don’t practice OMT but when I had a running injury that wouldn’t heal I went to a DO who fixed it. I also had chronic headaches for years that I had been ignoring and had those treated too. In the right hands it is an amazing therapy. You may believe it is hocus pocus but it isn’t. It’s an amazing theraputic modality. Just because most DO’s tend to practice the same way as an allopathic physician (myself included) doesn’t mean that the osteopathic manipulation isn’t valid.
Some people are ‘late bloomers’ Some people need to be at a school geographically close to home. There are many reasons for choosing a certain school. All I can tell you is I was well respected in my program and unless I wore a flying banner on top of my head no one would have a clue I was a DO and not an MD. My brother who is an MD hematologist/oncologist and has been practicing 20 years is waiting for a DO to graduate the heme/onc program because he’s the best they’ve seen coming out of the fellowship in years and they want him to join the practice. This is a fancy NYC practice. Things have changed I think from the ‘old days’ of prejudice.
In response to Anon 9:21, I respect your opinion but feel as though it is a bit uninformed. Please allow me to explain…
I’ve just completed a masters degree in biomedical sciences because coming out of my undergraduate program, I was unsure as to whether I wanted to pursue a PhD, PharmD, or medical degree. My masters work allowed me to explore basic science research as well as clinical research, and after working in both settings, I’ve decided to apply to medical school.
My bottom line? I am “premed” and visiting DO and MD schools alike to find out what each has to offer. I have a few friends who are only applying to DO schools, but not because they have poor records; they just agree more with the osteopathic philosophy. I am also finding that DO schools have many students that were accepted to a number of allopathic programs and still chose the osteopathic option. Many people I’ve spoken with, both patients and physicians, believe in OMT as a capable supplement to allopathic techniques for an array of symptoms.
Although some studies may fail to show significant treatment effects for OMT groups, one must consider that there are a multitude of symptoms treated by OMT and one study cannot evaluate them all (if a study fails to exhibit a significant effect for one symptom, it does not mean that another study on a different treatment/symptom, or even for the same treatment/symptom but using a different study design, would necessarily fail to show significance)…we don’t really know yet whether or not OMT “works” (scientifically speaking).
Also, I have not found some sort of a hole in the osteopathic curriculums, when compared to allopathic curriculums, where OMT replaces something that MD students learn; rather, it seems to me as though DO students learn OMT in addition to everything included in the allopathic courses.
As far as the “bottom of the barrel” idea, just because the mean MCAT or GPA for some DO schools is lower does not necessarily mean that the MCAT/GPA ranges for DO programs do not have equally high maximum extremes as their MD counterparts; such statistics could also mean that along with the equally high scores, there are lower minimum scores accepted, which bring down the mean. Those students with the lower raw scores must, however, have strengths that override the low scores (e.g. experience, interview skills) to get them accepted. After all, students are not, by any means, admitted merely based on those numbers. So, I would not consider that the bottom of the barrel. Moreover, of two physicians with the same boards scores, I would choose the one with a better “bedside manner” despite a poorer MCAT/undergrad GPA, without hesitation.
I am still in the process of deciding which philosophy works best for me, but I think that whichever path I choose, both have the potential to train “stellar” physicians. What I know is that either way, I will not decide based on stereotypes or uninformed public opinion.
Thanks for “listening”!
Wow, I’m surprised that in a world where there is so much going on, MDs and DOs battle over who’s the better doc. The truth is, if you put your mind and heart into whatever you do you can be fantastic, innovative…even “stellar”. Quite in the same way if you are solely taking on a profession to show off your income and subsequent luxuries….you may not have the same passion and be as “stellar”. Regardless, DO or MD, you have made a commitment to do no harm. A promise to be a lifelong healer, teacher, learner, and leader. That’s a position that should not be taken lightly. To get back to the stats,that someone–a very arrogant and ignorant “someone”, mentioned earlier…
Stats don’t equal educational QUALITY! Especially given the standards, quotas, and many other subjective factors involved. It’s insane to think that DO students are uneducated or remedial and MD students are not. It’s simply absurd. Being an MD I’m astonished and embarrassed that I share letters with folks that have the audacity to think this way about other people but call themselves healers…and vow to do now harm. Wow…
no*
I am a medical malpractice defense attorney. We represent hundreds of M.D’s and hundrends of D.O.’s. And in about 75% of our cases we are dealing with D.O.’s who are alleged to have committed malpractice. Of that 75% I would say that probably 45% of the D.O.’s actually did committ medical malpractice. Of the 25% of M.D’s i would say that about less than 10% actually comitted malpractice. Now these figures are not this way because we represent more D.O’s than M.D.’s, no, these figures are this way because the D.O.’s are inferior to the M.D.’s. When my loved ones go to the doctor, a hospital, or emergency room i make them ask the doctor treating them whether they are a D.O. or a M.D., and if they say D.O. i tell my loved ones to leave immediatly because they can much better treatment from a vet than they can from a D.O.
Anon 4:33…
I mean seriously…the vet comment. You are so making that whole “medical malpractice” attorney stuff up…
…hahahahaha….a vet, thats a good one…
Maybe I should tell my buddy who is a Ph.D. in molecular biology that joke as he studies for his D.O. boards.
this was all very interesting, but what does PC mean after a doctor’s name.
I know someone who has a 2.9 GPA and a 23 MCAT who got accepted to Yale Med. Of Course the only reason she got in was becuase she was a minority, but if they let someone in with those stats, it proves that you dont have to be Einstein to succeed in MD programs they just need a way of weeding through the thousands of applicants.
DO’s are joke degrees. If you can’t get into an MD program, try for a DO program. You’ll do just fine. If you are looking at residency programs, and there are many DOs in the previous class, that means its a weak residency. They are glorified chiropractors and it’s clear that they have chips on their shoulders about their inferior degrees. Look at the top 50 hospitals in the US, and I assure you there will be no more than 5% attending physicians who are DOs. It is nothing, read nothing like an MD.
[They are glorified chiropractors and it's clear that they have chips on their shoulders about their inferior degrees. Look at the top 50 hospitals in the US, and I assure you there will be no more than 5% attending physicians who are DOs. It is nothing, read nothing like an MD.]
Uno momento idioto,
If DOs are 5% at a top institution that’s great, since DOs make up about 8% of the physician population right now.
Si senor, YOU ARE A IDIOT
YAWN!!! Those of us in medicine really tire of this whole DO vs MD discussion. I am a DO and chose it because I wanted to attend a specific school (with exceptionally high board scores on BOTH USMLE and COMLEX) and because it was a family institution. This discussion is a thing of the past. It seems only the truly ignorant persist in discussing it.
At the end of the day, I only refer to doctors that I like, know, and trust. I can safely say that it has nothing to do with where they went to school, whether they are a DO or MD, what their grades or MCAT or board scores were, etc. These factors have little to do with being a truly exceptional doctor.
Judging by the number of comments on this thread, this topic is apparently the most important issue in health care. Seriously, is this the biggest thing we have to argue about?
I am a future med student-researching DO/MD right now- and I would like to become a DO instead of an MD but I fear that I will not receive the respect I deserve from MD’s and I do not know if it is more difficult to receive a good internship if one is a DO. (My GPA is good and I am sure I will do well on the MCAT) Also, does anyone have any comments on if DO’s are less respected in Western US than Eastern?
I am an undergrad applying to schools right now, both MD and DO. I would rather get into a DO school. If all the science curriculum is the same, but DOs get 400-500 more hours of training in musculoskeletal system function and treatment options, well … that’s something I don’t want to be left out of my training. But do I think this choice alone is going to make me a more caring practitioner than my friends who get MDs? Nope. I would hope the heuristic used to define an educated, dedicated, caring practitioner would be more complex than two letters that follow a name.
P.S. If someone has something nasty to say in response to my comment, please use witty and interesting threats and namecalling, not the run-of-the-mill ones we’ve had so far!
It doesn’t matter what degree you have. We are all in it to help save lives and make progress in healthcare. There should be no reason for any discrimination because the letters behind your name simply do not measure an individuals intellectual capabilities or ability to perform in a certain situation. We really need to address real problems facing healthcare today and stop all of this MD/DO debate because it just doesn’t matter period.
Dear Kevin, M.D.,
Don’t you think it would be better for DOs for general public,media, and international recognition that D.O.s change their initials to MD,DO or MD,O or MD/DO? MD,DOs could work along MDs and there would certainly be a lot less prejudice and no one then would question a MD,DO’s credentials then, you agree?
Wouldn’t it be better if the AOA joined forces and be under the AMA to make this nation strong for all physicians?
Thanks for any info on this matter, Kev.
Aren’t DOs like chiropractors? Is there much of a difference between a chiropractor and DO? Do DOs just learn further techniques of manipulation than chiropractors?
My friend told me DOs are similar to MDs and I couldn’t stop laughing! My friend is such a dummy!
anonymous,
You are wrong! DOs are like MDs that they can prescribe any medication, work independently, and specialize in any field they chose, so they are not chiropractors, that’s for sure. Chiropractors can’t prescribe medicine, surgery like MDs/DOs, but only manipulation.
However, most DOs want to be MDs and applied to regular medical schools, but didn’t get in, so they went to a DO (osteopathic) school instead as a backup, as opposed to applying to MD schools again or going to a Carribean or European MD program.
So, basically, deep inside, the truth is most DOs want to be MDs and would rather have MD behind their name, but the fact is, the just couldn’t get into a U.S. regular medical school to become a Doctor of Medicine, instead they became a Doctor of Osteopathy.
So, anyway, DOs and MDs are equal in regard to state laws and essentially the same, but most DOs and everyone knows that DOs envy MDs and wish they could have MD behind their name instead of DO. MD is what everyone in the world knows as medical doctor and DOs are humble to practice medicine, but wish they were MD!
Harvard MD may believe that OMM is poppycock, but his own medical school would disagree. For DOs looking for validation, you need not look any further than the number one medical school in the country offering what you learn every day:
http://cme.med.harvard.edu/cmeups/pdf/00271286.pdf
We must all work together. MDs must stop feeling superior and DOs must stop feeling inferior. There is no difference in patient outcomes, malpractice lawsuits, or any other factors among the two types of physicians.
I agree with the sentiment of many others here that there are far more important issues we need to be united on in healthcare.
With the advent of Doctorate of Nursing Practice (DNP) and of Doctor of Science Physician Assistant (DScPA), shouldn’t MDs and DOs be united to stay in charge of these doctorate mid-levels.
To help do this, DOs should change their title to MD,DO or MD,O and that will help the general public and all patients realize physicians from non-physicians.
Hello,
For more respect from their patients to recognize that they are real doctors, are some osteopaths now applying for the http://www.DOTOMD.com program? If so, could the doctor then display : MD,DO initials?
Thanks for any information.
My wife is an M.D…and for over 30 years of interaction with hospitals and clinics etc…it seems that D.O.s gravitate more to the admin side…id say..in my personal meets…60-70 percent of those who are doctors,many of course arent…but those that are tend more often to be D.O than M.D…for whatever its worth or matters.
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