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	<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html</link>
	<description>medical blog</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-75979</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 04:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-75979</guid>
		<description>I have never sold pharma products but sold surgial devices for 20 years before moving into management. Drug reps are treated by many physicians as a necessary inconvenience because they  are not a true asset to his practice.  I know the surgeons that I worked with never felt that way about me or my colleagues.  We were there to help them become better trained so they could grow their practice by offering the best care available.  I never did lunches and never did the smoke and mirror routine.  If I had to buy your  time with lunch or a pen then so could my competitor.  The only time that I was treated rudely was from office staff because I did not bring them goodies. Never had a better time than in the OR and formed lasting friendships with many of my docs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never sold pharma products but sold surgial devices for 20 years before moving into management. Drug reps are treated by many physicians as a necessary inconvenience because they  are not a true asset to his practice.  I know the surgeons that I worked with never felt that way about me or my colleagues.  We were there to help them become better trained so they could grow their practice by offering the best care available.  I never did lunches and never did the smoke and mirror routine.  If I had to buy your  time with lunch or a pen then so could my competitor.  The only time that I was treated rudely was from office staff because I did not bring them goodies. Never had a better time than in the OR and formed lasting friendships with many of my docs.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathleen</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58221</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58221</guid>
		<description>When I had my Whipple I specifically requested Protonix, by name, knowing it was the only PPI that worked on me. I was told it was too expensive and given something that didn&#039;t work only later to be switched to a Protonix via drip and sent home with lots of Protonix in pill form. I pay a $200 co pay for my Protonix. I consume it, Give me the pen! (and as soon as I can eat, lunch would be great too)!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I had my Whipple I specifically requested Protonix, by name, knowing it was the only PPI that worked on me. I was told it was too expensive and given something that didn&#8217;t work only later to be switched to a Protonix via drip and sent home with lots of Protonix in pill form. I pay a $200 co pay for my Protonix. I consume it, Give me the pen! (and as soon as I can eat, lunch would be great too)!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58220</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58220</guid>
		<description>&quot;We still use meds like Doxy and Bactrim.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;When is the last time you had samples of bactrim or doxy to give out? Unless your &quot;inner city pharmacy&quot; is giving out the meds. I don&#039;t have that luxury.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Giving away sample medication for illnesses that cant be cured (e.g. diabetes, HTN, etc) is unethical because it forces others to pay for the meds and increases healthcare costs as a whole while providing little aggregate benefit to the recipients of the free drugs.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So you are saying when someone who walks in the door with continued BP&#039;s of 180/110 in which HCTZ hasn&#039;t touched, they can&#039;t afford a B-blocker or an ACE and I should just say &quot;screw you&quot;? You clearly don&#039;t practice medicine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We still use meds like Doxy and Bactrim.&#8221;</p>
<p>When is the last time you had samples of bactrim or doxy to give out? Unless your &#8220;inner city pharmacy&#8221; is giving out the meds. I don&#8217;t have that luxury.</p>
<p>&#8220;Giving away sample medication for illnesses that cant be cured (e.g. diabetes, HTN, etc) is unethical because it forces others to pay for the meds and increases healthcare costs as a whole while providing little aggregate benefit to the recipients of the free drugs.&#8221;</p>
<p>So you are saying when someone who walks in the door with continued BP&#8217;s of 180/110 in which HCTZ hasn&#8217;t touched, they can&#8217;t afford a B-blocker or an ACE and I should just say &#8220;screw you&#8221;? You clearly don&#8217;t practice medicine.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58215</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58215</guid>
		<description>Giving away free sample medications is unethical for a doctor unless its literally a curative drug that only needs to be used for a limited period (e.g. some antibiotics).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Giving away sample medication for illnesses that cant be cured (e.g. diabetes, HTN, etc) is unethical because it forces others to pay for the meds and increases healthcare costs as a whole while providing little aggregate benefit to the recipients of the free drugs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;These samples are not &quot;free&quot; after all.  Pharma companies calculate how many free samples they will give away that year and incorporate that cost into the price for the medication.  They arent giving away anything for free and youd better not be naive enough to believe they are taking it out of the CEO&#039;s bonus</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giving away free sample medications is unethical for a doctor unless its literally a curative drug that only needs to be used for a limited period (e.g. some antibiotics).</p>
<p>Giving away sample medication for illnesses that cant be cured (e.g. diabetes, HTN, etc) is unethical because it forces others to pay for the meds and increases healthcare costs as a whole while providing little aggregate benefit to the recipients of the free drugs.</p>
<p>These samples are not &#8220;free&#8221; after all.  Pharma companies calculate how many free samples they will give away that year and incorporate that cost into the price for the medication.  They arent giving away anything for free and youd better not be naive enough to believe they are taking it out of the CEO&#8217;s bonus</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58210</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58210</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do I take their free samples? You bet. Why, because I regularly see people who for whatever reason cannot pay for their meds yet (medicaid pending etc). &quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I work at an inner city hospital where drug companies are banned. We don&#039;t give away free samples of &quot;Ketek&quot;&lt;br/&gt;to the homeless. We still use meds like Doxy and Bactrim. We also have EXTREMELY low rates of resistance against pathogens. I think this is more than just a coincidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do I take their free samples? You bet. Why, because I regularly see people who for whatever reason cannot pay for their meds yet (medicaid pending etc). &#8220;</p>
<p>I work at an inner city hospital where drug companies are banned. We don&#8217;t give away free samples of &#8220;Ketek&#8221;<br />to the homeless. We still use meds like Doxy and Bactrim. We also have EXTREMELY low rates of resistance against pathogens. I think this is more than just a coincidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58203</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 06:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58203</guid>
		<description>Do I take their food? no&lt;br/&gt;Do I take their pens? no&lt;br/&gt;Do I take their free samples? You bet. Why, because I regularly see people who for whatever reason cannot pay for their meds yet (medicaid pending etc). I suspect most of you high and mighty types in reality are like joanna who have little clue as to what day to day doctoring involves. It is easy to pontificate when you work for the government in a job that doesn&#039;t even involve direct patient care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I take their food? no<br />Do I take their pens? no<br />Do I take their free samples? You bet. Why, because I regularly see people who for whatever reason cannot pay for their meds yet (medicaid pending etc). I suspect most of you high and mighty types in reality are like joanna who have little clue as to what day to day doctoring involves. It is easy to pontificate when you work for the government in a job that doesn&#8217;t even involve direct patient care.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58201</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58201</guid>
		<description>While I admire these med students for their conviction, it seems a little overdone.  Todsy we have commercials in movie theaters, innumerable commercials on TV for prescription meds, and banners on websites promoting meds.  We all get spam telling us we can buy certain meds cheaper and without prescriptions.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In short, we live in a world innundated by advertisements.  Drugs reps are part of that world - one that thinks it must CONSTANTLY market its product.  Drug reps aren&#039;t going anywhere; they&#039;re here to stay.  And if a few med students get a free lunch or 2 out of them, so be it.  I know very few practicing docs who base their prescribing on what drugs reps told them in med school.  And if some day that med student becomes a resident and writes for something too expensive or &quot;out there,&quot; an attending will comment on it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Going hungry is the med students&#039; way of &quot;fighting the system&quot; - it&#039;s a phase that will pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I admire these med students for their conviction, it seems a little overdone.  Todsy we have commercials in movie theaters, innumerable commercials on TV for prescription meds, and banners on websites promoting meds.  We all get spam telling us we can buy certain meds cheaper and without prescriptions.</p>
<p>In short, we live in a world innundated by advertisements.  Drugs reps are part of that world &#8211; one that thinks it must CONSTANTLY market its product.  Drug reps aren&#8217;t going anywhere; they&#8217;re here to stay.  And if a few med students get a free lunch or 2 out of them, so be it.  I know very few practicing docs who base their prescribing on what drugs reps told them in med school.  And if some day that med student becomes a resident and writes for something too expensive or &#8220;out there,&#8221; an attending will comment on it.</p>
<p>Going hungry is the med students&#8217; way of &#8220;fighting the system&#8221; &#8211; it&#8217;s a phase that will pass.</p>
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		<title>By: R. W. Donnell</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58200</link>
		<dc:creator>R. W. Donnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 04:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58200</guid>
		<description>Kevin,&lt;br/&gt;Dig deeper into the activities of AMSA.  See my post on this subject.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2006/01/amsa-claims-to-take-moral-high-ground.html&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;jb,&lt;br/&gt;Yes, it is moral preening.  Aptly put.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Anonymous #2,&lt;br/&gt;Strong words.  Care to identify yourself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />Dig deeper into the activities of AMSA.  See my post on this subject.</p>
<p><a href="http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2006/01/amsa-claims-to-take-moral-high-ground.html" rel="nofollow">http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2006/01/amsa-claims-to-take-moral-high-ground.html</a></p>
<p>jb,<br />Yes, it is moral preening.  Aptly put.</p>
<p>Anonymous #2,<br />Strong words.  Care to identify yourself?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58198</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 03:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58198</guid>
		<description>Dr. Savatto,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You are a clueless prostitute.  I can say that because I am a doctor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Savatto,</p>
<p>You are a clueless prostitute.  I can say that because I am a doctor.</p>
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		<title>By: Domenico Savatta, MD</title>
		<link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/01/more-medical-students-are-refusing.html/comment-page-1#comment-58197</link>
		<dc:creator>Domenico Savatta, MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 03:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2006/01/19722.html#comment-58197</guid>
		<description>Interesting debate:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I am a urologist in a 9 urologist group who often get free smaples and 1-2 lunches per week for our office.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We also perform clinical studies that are sponsored by drug companies.&lt;br/&gt; &lt;br/&gt;I for one, think drug reps do far more good than harm.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I have only been in practice 3 years, but think the appropriate backlash against industry dates back to the free trips, free cars, and other outrageous gifts from the distant past.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Most physicians are too busy to find out about drugs from independent resources.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If none of the docs took any free stuff, there would be tens of thousands of reps out of a job.&lt;br/&gt;Drug sales would go down since docs wouldnt know about them.&lt;br/&gt;Money for R&amp;D would go way down, as would profits.&lt;br/&gt;New drugs would be rare.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I challenge these students to explain what would happen in an &quot;ideal world&quot; where docs completely shunned industry.&lt;br/&gt;I think that world would be far worse then what we have now.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Other sources of &quot;drug money&quot; are CME sponsored events and conferences, as well as other educational events that docs need and money might not otherwise be there for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting debate:</p>
<p>I am a urologist in a 9 urologist group who often get free smaples and 1-2 lunches per week for our office.</p>
<p>We also perform clinical studies that are sponsored by drug companies.</p>
<p>I for one, think drug reps do far more good than harm.</p>
<p>I have only been in practice 3 years, but think the appropriate backlash against industry dates back to the free trips, free cars, and other outrageous gifts from the distant past.</p>
<p>Most physicians are too busy to find out about drugs from independent resources.</p>
<p>If none of the docs took any free stuff, there would be tens of thousands of reps out of a job.<br />Drug sales would go down since docs wouldnt know about them.<br />Money for R&#038;D would go way down, as would profits.<br />New drugs would be rare.</p>
<p>I challenge these students to explain what would happen in an &#8220;ideal world&#8221; where docs completely shunned industry.<br />I think that world would be far worse then what we have now.</p>
<p>Other sources of &#8220;drug money&#8221; are CME sponsored events and conferences, as well as other educational events that docs need and money might not otherwise be there for.</p>
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