Comments on: Vioxx and Merck: The blogosphere responds http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html medical blog Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:35:28 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Anonymous http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54691 Anonymous Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:09:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54691 "You prosecute their officers. You prosecute the company as a corporate entity. Convicted officers can be fined or imprisoned. Convicted corporations can be fined."<br/><br/>You have to prove a criminal offense beyond a reasonable doubt. That would be almost impossible for what is usually negligence. “You prosecute their officers. You prosecute the company as a corporate entity. Convicted officers can be fined or imprisoned. Convicted corporations can be fined.”

You have to prove a criminal offense beyond a reasonable doubt. That would be almost impossible for what is usually negligence.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54679 Anonymous Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:22:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54679 Whew! Now that Martha Stewart is under House Arrest and you guys want to put Gilmartin in jail, i'm much less worried about Bin Laden running around out there, and not worried at all that there are Ten Level 3 Sex offenders living in my zip code. Whew! Now that Martha Stewart is under House Arrest and you guys want to put Gilmartin in jail, i’m much less worried about Bin Laden running around out there, and not worried at all that there are Ten Level 3 Sex offenders living in my zip code.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54678 Anonymous Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:11:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54678 "How do you punish a company in criminal court?"<br/><br/>You prosecute their officers. You prosecute the company as a corporate entity. Convicted officers can be fined or imprisoned. Convicted corporations can be fined. “How do you punish a company in criminal court?”

You prosecute their officers. You prosecute the company as a corporate entity. Convicted officers can be fined or imprisoned. Convicted corporations can be fined.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54648 Anonymous Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:24:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54648 How do you punish a company in criminal court? How do you punish a company in criminal court?

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54630 Anonymous Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:29:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54630 I agree with the previous commenter. If wrongdoing was committed, the proper venue for punishing that wrongdoing is the criminal court system. The system of punitive damages being assessed by civil courts is seriously flawed, particularly in cases like this with thousands of local trials each with widely differing standards of jurisprudence. The public good, and justice itself, would be better served in the criminal court system. I agree with the previous commenter. If wrongdoing was committed, the proper venue for punishing that wrongdoing is the criminal court system. The system of punitive damages being assessed by civil courts is seriously flawed, particularly in cases like this with thousands of local trials each with widely differing standards of jurisprudence. The public good, and justice itself, would be better served in the criminal court system.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54628 Anonymous Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:49:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54628 The present concept of punitive awards as practiced in the USA is a shameful canard. What it amounts to is a delegation--or rather a shirking-- of criminal due process to the civil judiciary, with the attendant lower standard of proof and the potential great enrichment of the civil tort bar. Never mind having to show actual damages: all that matters is how you feel about those damages, and if you feel really bad, well, the sky is the limit. <br/><br/>I wonder how our gullible public would feel about delegating other forms of punishment reserved to the state? If I can fine my neighbor, why can't I also imprison him?<br/><br/>Punishment belongs to the state, it shouldn't be passed off to the tort bar, no matter how greasy the palm. The present concept of punitive awards as practiced in the USA is a shameful canard. What it amounts to is a delegation–or rather a shirking– of criminal due process to the civil judiciary, with the attendant lower standard of proof and the potential great enrichment of the civil tort bar. Never mind having to show actual damages: all that matters is how you feel about those damages, and if you feel really bad, well, the sky is the limit.

I wonder how our gullible public would feel about delegating other forms of punishment reserved to the state? If I can fine my neighbor, why can’t I also imprison him?

Punishment belongs to the state, it shouldn’t be passed off to the tort bar, no matter how greasy the palm.

]]> By: GG http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54627 GG Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:25:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54627 For what it's worth, I think Merck earned this loss. I was aware there was a problem early on and advised my parents away from taking COX2 inhibitors because of a rising amount of data suggesting the negative effects. Merck had to have known this as well. The studies at that time were not controlled for cardiac risk though, so you couldn't draw any hard conclusions. HOWEVER, if Merck really was downplaying the risk in their marketing to doctors, then they were taking a big chance. I often hear academic physicians complain that drug reps are misleading physicians about the risks and effectiveness of the drugs they peddle, and that they have become more effective in recent years by displaying marketing pieces made to look like journal articles. From the reaction of jury members, it sounds like the plaintiff's attorney used this marketing to convince jurors that Merck was playing down a known risk. I think this verdict is the chickens coming home to roost. For what it’s worth, I think Merck earned this loss. I was aware there was a problem early on and advised my parents away from taking COX2 inhibitors because of a rising amount of data suggesting the negative effects. Merck had to have known this as well. The studies at that time were not controlled for cardiac risk though, so you couldn’t draw any hard conclusions. HOWEVER, if Merck really was downplaying the risk in their marketing to doctors, then they were taking a big chance. I often hear academic physicians complain that drug reps are misleading physicians about the risks and effectiveness of the drugs they peddle, and that they have become more effective in recent years by displaying marketing pieces made to look like journal articles. From the reaction of jury members, it sounds like the plaintiff’s attorney used this marketing to convince jurors that Merck was playing down a known risk. I think this verdict is the chickens coming home to roost.

]]> By: Curious JD http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54620 Curious JD Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:14:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54620 Chuck, based on your review of the testimony and evidence presented at trial, what would have been appropriate?<br/><br/>The whole - $224 million would have insured a lot of Americans - is a canard. If physicians received a punitive damage verdict against health insurers, couldn't we argue the same thing? <br/><br/>The purpose of punitives is to deter conduct. We can't jail a company for negligence. Companies only exist to make money, so to change their actions society has decided that we will punish them using money. The amount reflects the jury's judgment on what it would take to deter similar conduct in the future based on Merck's earnings. Of course, Texas law will knock it down significantly. <br/><br/>What number did you have in mind? Chuck, based on your review of the testimony and evidence presented at trial, what would have been appropriate?

The whole – $224 million would have insured a lot of Americans – is a canard. If physicians received a punitive damage verdict against health insurers, couldn’t we argue the same thing?

The purpose of punitives is to deter conduct. We can’t jail a company for negligence. Companies only exist to make money, so to change their actions society has decided that we will punish them using money. The amount reflects the jury’s judgment on what it would take to deter similar conduct in the future based on Merck’s earnings. Of course, Texas law will knock it down significantly.

What number did you have in mind?

]]> By: Chuck http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54619 Chuck Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:54:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54619 This case is an elegant example of the failings of civil jurisprudence in this country - it chooses to not only compensate but adminster punishment. Criminal jurisprudence requires a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in order to administer punishment. No such standard limits civil juries. In this case there is well beyond a reasonable doubt regarding refecoxib's role in Mr Ernst's death. Nonetheless, 12 Texas jurors saw fit to enact a severe punishment. But, Merck is rich, you say. Ok, but 224 million is a lot of money. How many uninsured Americans would have healthcare with that investment? Also, I'm not sure the any greater good is served by lawyers, as Evan Schaefer points out, shopping for new Gulfstreams.<br/><br/><br/>The jury decided to compensate, their assumed job - but to the tune of 24 millions dollars. That is interesting in itself. If I died today my projected earnings until retirement would be approx 5 million over 30+ years. Did Mr. Ernst, 6 years from retirement age have a remaining lifetime projected income of 24 million dollar? If so I'm going to go work for Walmart. <br/><br/>If civil juries are given the freedom to punish, they need higher standards. Emotions masquerading as facts do nothing to strengthen our justice system. Rather, they make civil jurisprudence an unregulated arm of governance. This case is an elegant example of the failings of civil jurisprudence in this country – it chooses to not only compensate but adminster punishment. Criminal jurisprudence requires a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard in order to administer punishment. No such standard limits civil juries. In this case there is well beyond a reasonable doubt regarding refecoxib’s role in Mr Ernst’s death. Nonetheless, 12 Texas jurors saw fit to enact a severe punishment. But, Merck is rich, you say. Ok, but 224 million is a lot of money. How many uninsured Americans would have healthcare with that investment? Also, I’m not sure the any greater good is served by lawyers, as Evan Schaefer points out, shopping for new Gulfstreams.

The jury decided to compensate, their assumed job – but to the tune of 24 millions dollars. That is interesting in itself. If I died today my projected earnings until retirement would be approx 5 million over 30+ years. Did Mr. Ernst, 6 years from retirement age have a remaining lifetime projected income of 24 million dollar? If so I’m going to go work for Walmart.

If civil juries are given the freedom to punish, they need higher standards. Emotions masquerading as facts do nothing to strengthen our justice system. Rather, they make civil jurisprudence an unregulated arm of governance.

]]> By: Curious JD http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-blogosphere-responds.html/comment-page-1#comment-54618 Curious JD Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:49:00 +0000 http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/vioxx-and-merck-the-blogosphere-responds.html#comment-54618 If the punitive award, which under Texas law will be reduced to $26 million, were to be awarded to say, the National Institutes of Health, would so many of you be so against it?<br/><br/>What if punitives went somewhere besides the plaintiff? If the punitive award, which under Texas law will be reduced to $26 million, were to be awarded to say, the National Institutes of Health, would so many of you be so against it?

What if punitives went somewhere besides the plaintiff?

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