<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" > <channel><title>Comments on:</title> <atom:link href="http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html</link> <description></description> <lastBuildDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:27:00 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" /> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54655</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:22:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54655</guid> <description>Tell me if I have this wrong/right:  lung cancer is not very curable if discovered late.  it is more likely curable if discovered early.  Studies show that screening for lung cancer via eg spiral CT doesn&#039;t save lives because, as a group, the people whose lung cancer is caught early by the testing end up dying from something other than lung cancer, so that longevity is not increased by screening tests.  Is that correct?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tell me if I have this wrong/right:  lung cancer is not very curable if discovered late.  it is more likely curable if discovered early.  Studies show that screening for lung cancer via eg spiral CT doesn&#8217;t save lives because, as a group, the people whose lung cancer is caught early by the testing end up dying from something other than lung cancer, so that longevity is not increased by screening tests.  Is that correct?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Rich, MD</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54607</link> <dc:creator>Rich, MD</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:06:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54607</guid> <description>Bravo! You make the points much clearer than I could. Too bad it takes a math degree to do it. I teach stats to medical students and residents, and consequently, to patients, but these issues seldom get across.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;One reason for the knee-jerk testing of many physicians is defensive medicine. Even when such a dissertation about the risks of screening does occur, the patient cannot be held responsible for their decision, the physician (or training program, as in the case of the PSA that has been discussed in this blog) is held responsible for not making the recommendation, because the public perception is that there is no harm in testing.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I use the CA-125 example often. This one circulates on the internet every 2 years or so, that women should have screening CA-125 to detect ovarian cancer early. Of course the example case is someone with advanced disease, but that technicality is lost on the reader. Invariably, droves of women come in asking for a CA-125 test to detect ovarian cancer, because no other test will do it. It&#039;s a poor test. Assume that it is done on an otherwise healthy person and is high (&quot;positive&quot;) - what now? Imaging studies are likely to be negative (that is the rationale for doing CA-125 - &quot;it detects before imaging can&quot;) - so what next? Exploratory laparoscopy/laparotomy - for a test that is insensitive and unspecific. Here is one citation:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Moss, EL, &lt;i&gt;el al&lt;/i&gt;. The role of CA125 in clinical practice. J Clin Pathol. 2005 Mar;58(3):308-12.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;which abstract concludes:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;These results confirm the high false positive rate and poor sensitivity and specificity associated with CA125. The substantial inappropriate usage of CA125 has led to results that are useless to the clinician, have cost implications, and add to patient anxiety and clinical uncertainty.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Wait - it will come around again. Snopes.com has a story on the letter that circulates: http://www.snopes.com/toxins/ca125.htm</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo! You make the points much clearer than I could. Too bad it takes a math degree to do it. I teach stats to medical students and residents, and consequently, to patients, but these issues seldom get across.</p><p>One reason for the knee-jerk testing of many physicians is defensive medicine. Even when such a dissertation about the risks of screening does occur, the patient cannot be held responsible for their decision, the physician (or training program, as in the case of the PSA that has been discussed in this blog) is held responsible for not making the recommendation, because the public perception is that there is no harm in testing.</p><p>I use the CA-125 example often. This one circulates on the internet every 2 years or so, that women should have screening CA-125 to detect ovarian cancer early. Of course the example case is someone with advanced disease, but that technicality is lost on the reader. Invariably, droves of women come in asking for a CA-125 test to detect ovarian cancer, because no other test will do it. It&#8217;s a poor test. Assume that it is done on an otherwise healthy person and is high (&#8220;positive&#8221;) &#8211; what now? Imaging studies are likely to be negative (that is the rationale for doing CA-125 &#8211; &#8220;it detects before imaging can&#8221;) &#8211; so what next? Exploratory laparoscopy/laparotomy &#8211; for a test that is insensitive and unspecific. Here is one citation:</p><p>Moss, EL, <i>el al</i>. The role of CA125 in clinical practice. J Clin Pathol. 2005 Mar;58(3):308-12.</p><p>which abstract concludes:</p><p><i>These results confirm the high false positive rate and poor sensitivity and specificity associated with CA125. The substantial inappropriate usage of CA125 has led to results that are useless to the clinician, have cost implications, and add to patient anxiety and clinical uncertainty.</i></p><p>Wait &#8211; it will come around again. Snopes.com has a story on the letter that circulates: <a href="http://www.snopes.com/toxins/ca125.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/toxins/ca125.htm</a></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54605</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:43:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54605</guid> <description>While this particular screening test doesn&#039;t apply to me - I am not a smoker and am not around smokers - this issue applies to many screening tests even those that are recommended. As I understand - and I am a patient not a physician, although having a math degree I have above average knowledge of statistics - is that all tests can cause harm as well as benefit. The most serious of the former (and less advertised) is overdiagnosis and overtreatment which, in case of cancer, is something one wants to avoid. So what bugs me is not that patients demand tests - let those who want them have them; but that doctors recommend screening tests universally without ever mentioning that the benefit is uncertain and there is a probability of harm. Just last weekend on Fox Sunday Housecall, Dr Rosenfield recommended spiral CT for smokers. No mention of lack of benefit, no mention of possible harms. In fact, when it comes to screening test, the harms are never mentioned at all. Moreover, very often we are scared into having tests we wouldn&#039;t want if we were given all the facts.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Pap smear is currently recommended every 3 years (after 3 consequitive negative scans) yet most ObGyns keep doing them every year even for women whose lack of sex life puts them at very low risk. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Experts still argue about whether benefits of mammograms especially for women in their 40s are greater than risks, but if I, after carefully reading analysis of the available studies, articles (in medical journals such as BMJ and websites like NCI) on the subject, decide that I don&#039;t want them (because for me 1 in 1700 chance after 10 mammograms that it&#039;ll save my life based on optimistic view of the studies - interestingly though that the study that showed no benefit is both more recent and most reviewed - is not worth for me the 50% chance of false positive, 18% chance of a biopsy and a tangible probability of being treated for something that would&#039;ve never threatened my life), I&#039;d be called irresponsible and harassed and scared by misleading statistics (using relative risk instead of absolute risk as well as hypothetical life-time risk instead of 10-year risk)and pressured. &lt;br/&gt;I think we&#039;ve been lead to believe that early detection is always beneficial, that every second counts, and that there are no harms associated with screening. Media is mostly to blame, but doctors share the blame as well. Had we, the public, been given the fuller picture right away, maybe the perception would&#039;ve been different.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While this particular screening test doesn&#8217;t apply to me &#8211; I am not a smoker and am not around smokers &#8211; this issue applies to many screening tests even those that are recommended. As I understand &#8211; and I am a patient not a physician, although having a math degree I have above average knowledge of statistics &#8211; is that all tests can cause harm as well as benefit. The most serious of the former (and less advertised) is overdiagnosis and overtreatment which, in case of cancer, is something one wants to avoid. So what bugs me is not that patients demand tests &#8211; let those who want them have them; but that doctors recommend screening tests universally without ever mentioning that the benefit is uncertain and there is a probability of harm. Just last weekend on Fox Sunday Housecall, Dr Rosenfield recommended spiral CT for smokers. No mention of lack of benefit, no mention of possible harms. In fact, when it comes to screening test, the harms are never mentioned at all. Moreover, very often we are scared into having tests we wouldn&#8217;t want if we were given all the facts.</p><p>Pap smear is currently recommended every 3 years (after 3 consequitive negative scans) yet most ObGyns keep doing them every year even for women whose lack of sex life puts them at very low risk.</p><p>Experts still argue about whether benefits of mammograms especially for women in their 40s are greater than risks, but if I, after carefully reading analysis of the available studies, articles (in medical journals such as BMJ and websites like NCI) on the subject, decide that I don&#8217;t want them (because for me 1 in 1700 chance after 10 mammograms that it&#8217;ll save my life based on optimistic view of the studies &#8211; interestingly though that the study that showed no benefit is both more recent and most reviewed &#8211; is not worth for me the 50% chance of false positive, 18% chance of a biopsy and a tangible probability of being treated for something that would&#8217;ve never threatened my life), I&#8217;d be called irresponsible and harassed and scared by misleading statistics (using relative risk instead of absolute risk as well as hypothetical life-time risk instead of 10-year risk)and pressured. <br />I think we&#8217;ve been lead to believe that early detection is always beneficial, that every second counts, and that there are no harms associated with screening. Media is mostly to blame, but doctors share the blame as well. Had we, the public, been given the fuller picture right away, maybe the perception would&#8217;ve been different.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54563</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:13:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54563</guid> <description>&quot;the evidence is not there&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But that  takes time, and people aren&#039;t a herd of cows.&lt;br/&gt;They are individuals who have an interest in getting a best-case -scenario for themselves.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Screening undoubtedly will help dectect cancer earlier. That alone is a benefit to patients for a multitude of reasons,  including wise planning, making the most of good days ahead,  setting priorities.&lt;br/&gt;  &lt;br/&gt;Even if folks who find early cancer through screening won&#039;t get any extra time (which is doubtful,  they probably will get extra time, especially as experience in the treatment of early cancer  becomes more common).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The only significant downside  is the &quot;incidentaloma&quot; issue -  but patients can make an informed choice.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the evidence is not there&#8221;</p><p>But that  takes time, and people aren&#8217;t a herd of cows.<br />They are individuals who have an interest in getting a best-case -scenario for themselves.</p><p>Screening undoubtedly will help dectect cancer earlier. That alone is a benefit to patients for a multitude of reasons,  including wise planning, making the most of good days ahead,  setting priorities.</p><p>Even if folks who find early cancer through screening won&#8217;t get any extra time (which is doubtful,  they probably will get extra time, especially as experience in the treatment of early cancer  becomes more common).</p><p>The only significant downside  is the &#8220;incidentaloma&#8221; issue &#8211;  but patients can make an informed choice.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54545</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:28:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54545</guid> <description>The fact that the USPTF says screening doesn&#039;t help won&#039;t prevent lawyers from suing doctors of patients who get incurable lung cancer due to the &quot;malpractice&quot; of the doctor in failing to order the screening spiral CT.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that the USPTF says screening doesn&#8217;t help won&#8217;t prevent lawyers from suing doctors of patients who get incurable lung cancer due to the &#8220;malpractice&#8221; of the doctor in failing to order the screening spiral CT.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Elliott</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54544</link> <dc:creator>Elliott</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:26:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54544</guid> <description>Kevin,  any comment on the new study regarding the combination of surgery with chemo for higher lung cancer survival rates?  How long before the USPTF reviews this information to determine if any change is appropriate?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=47717</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,  any comment on the new study regarding the combination of surgery with chemo for higher lung cancer survival rates?  How long before the USPTF reviews this information to determine if any change is appropriate?</p><p><a href="http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=47717" rel="nofollow">http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=47717</a></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Kevin</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54543</link> <dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:21:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54543</guid> <description>Precisely my point.  As of today, earlier detection --&gt; earlier treatment --&gt; does not equal lives saved.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is intuitive that that should be the case, but the evidence is not there.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Kevin</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Precisely my point.  As of today, earlier detection &#8211;> earlier treatment &#8211;> does not equal lives saved.</p><p>It is intuitive that that should be the case, but the evidence is not there.</p><p>Kevin</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: nonsmoker</title><link>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2005/08/evidence-not-intuition-why-lung-cancer.html#comment-54542</link> <dc:creator>nonsmoker</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:17:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://clients.emmense.com/kevinmd/2005/08/18765.html#comment-54542</guid> <description>Tell that to the folks who&#039;ve already quit or who never smoked, but had to be around smokers.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Nobody thinks that spiral CT will reduce his or her chance of lung cancer.  They think it might increase the chances any lung cancer contracted will be found at an earlier stage of progression, when the cancer is still small and occult and potentially more treatable and survivable.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tell that to the folks who&#8217;ve already quit or who never smoked, but had to be around smokers.</p><p>Nobody thinks that spiral CT will reduce his or her chance of lung cancer.  They think it might increase the chances any lung cancer contracted will be found at an earlier stage of progression, when the cancer is still small and occult and potentially more treatable and survivable.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using apc
Page Caching using disk: enhanced
Database Caching 2/6 queries in 0.003 seconds using memcached
Object Caching 418/422 objects using apc
Content Delivery Network via cdn.kevinmd.com

Served from: www.kevinmd.com @ 2012-02-14 19:59:56 -->
